Welcome to the IHoP

[lithium 358]

Peng, saw you write in the deadener thread, you got noisy HDD's ?

mostly fan noise; I have an 80mm 50 CFM/45 dBA fan on my CPU, loud little pucker. Of course if I just upgraded the machine and got one of those low speed 120 mm CPU fans that would probably take care of things right quick Better quality case fans would help too.

Best mod I ever did was the 120mm Nexus fans

Low speed intake and exhaust fans should keep you cool.

Make sure that cpu fan stays clear of dust.

water cooling anyone??

[dem beats 1,223]

Hrm..... Almost every definition(i could find from my phone right now) of fascism and socialist doctrines are really paralell. Federalism, individualism, and the like are more opposing the basic paradigm of fascism and socialism. federalism, individualism and "libertarian" paradigms are more self centric.

IMHO the only person I fear is the zealot. left or right. Since in general it seams the socialist and "leftist" doctrines are the most violent and volitile lately, then in general I have more fear of that attitude.

which doctrines would those be?

Per the quotes you just quoted.... leftist and socialist.

Since in general it seams the socialist and "leftist" doctrines are the most violent and volitile lately

Quoted and bolderated for quotagraphical goodness.

[lithium 358]

Hrm..... Almost every definition(i could find from my phone right now) of fascism and socialist doctrines are really paralell. Federalism, individualism, and the like are more opposing the basic paradigm of fascism and socialism. federalism, individualism and "libertarian" paradigms are more self centric.

IMHO the only person I fear is the zealot. left or right. Since in general it seams the socialist and "leftist" doctrines are the most violent and volitile lately, then in general I have more fear of that attitude.

which doctrines would those be?

Per the quotes you just quoted.... leftist and socialist.

Since in general it seams the socialist and "leftist" doctrines are the most violent and volitile lately

Quoted and bolderated for quotagraphical goodness.

i ment to ask what specifically about socialist doctrine encourages violence, etc? an example or something would be fine.

[dem beats 1,223]

What about socialism promotes violence? Boiled down nothing more than individualism/federalism unless you want to bias it on your own philosophy.

I don't think I ever said encourage. I said that recently they have been the most violent groups.

I answered the question you asked, but I don't think it's what you meant to ask.

I will assume that you were actually asking for what examples of acting on a socialist/fascist were violent that I might be talking about. Locally, look to the union riots in WI etc. More globally look at the middle east. You can argue that maybe there is a difference in the current social issues and violence seen there from the social violence here, but they are still based on a group stating what the "greater good" is and that this deciding group knows better than I do. The idea that someone else knows better how I should live my life and whom I should or shouldn't help is flawed in nature.

If you want to ultimately over simplify it, try having all of America buy one big pizza. All of it, at once to feed everyone. Some A-hole will want anchovies, another will need to be gluten free etc etc etc. It doesn't work to socially or fiscally to unconditionally provide for everyone. What does work is to encourage everyone to go out and get the best fucking pizza they can for themselves.

[lithium 358]

What about socialism promotes violence? Boiled down nothing more than individualism/federalism unless you want to bias it on your own philosophy.

I don't think I ever said encourage. I said that recently they have been the most violent groups.

I answered the question you asked, but I don't think it's what you meant to ask.

I will assume that you were actually asking for what examples of acting on a socialist/fascist were violent that I might be talking about. Locally, look to the union riots in WI etc. More globally look at the middle east. You can argue that maybe there is a difference in the current social issues and violence seen there from the social violence here, but they are still based on a group stating what the "greater good" is and that this deciding group knows better than I do. The idea that someone else knows better how I should live my life and whom I should or shouldn't help is flawed in nature.

If you want to ultimately over simplify it, try having all of America buy one big pizza. All of it, at once to feed everyone. Some A-hole will want anchovies, another will need to be gluten free etc etc etc. It doesn't work to socially or fiscally to unconditionally provide for everyone. What does work is to encourage everyone to go out and get the best fucking pizza they can for themselves.

apologies on wording the question badly.. im not the biggest fan of capitalism but if you dont mind i'd like to ask you afew questions. anyone who is interested can answer. not looking to start a fight or anything.

maybe a better question should be, should unions exist? i dont think unions make claims like they are for the "greater good", i think they do however wish to challenge the corporate structure that exploits their labor. i would argue they create a balance between proper compensation for their labor and cost effective production, at least in theory..

its quite common to see record profits from corporations, all the while they continue to send jobs overseas. im not sure if i find this system morally acceptable.

perhaps a larger simplification, how much pizza do they need?

im not suggesting we just take the money back from them, but i do ask how should people go about returning higher wages to more people. i dont think you can say "work harder" or "get educated" because when it comes down it someone has to do those menial jobs, drive the delivery truck or bring me my god dam pizza.

[Adrian_D 520]

Peng, saw you write in the deadener thread, you got noisy HDD's ?

mostly fan noise; I have an 80mm 50 CFM/45 dBA fan on my CPU, loud little pucker. Of course if I just upgraded the machine and got one of those low speed 120 mm CPU fans that would probably take care of things right quick Better quality case fans would help too.

Best mod I ever did was the 120mm Nexus fans

Low speed intake and exhaust fans should keep you cool.

Make sure that cpu fan stays clear of dust.

water cooling anyone??

It's oil cooling actually

[Tirefryr 1,742]

Too noisy to sleep.

[Godsmack 361]

So.........yea........sick of sand.............especially sand boogers.

J

[Penguin4x4 1,761]

maybe a better question should be, should unions exist? i dont think unions make claims like they are for the "greater good", i think they do however wish to challenge the corporate structure that exploits their labor. i would argue they create a balance between proper compensation for their labor and cost effective production, at least in theory..

Unions have historically been a good thing, and are still necessary in a few labor markets; for the most part, however, they tend to become greedy and self serving. The NFL Player's Union, for instance, gets a nickel for every dollar consumers and other businesses spend on any item that contains a trademark or copyright owned by either the NFL or the 32 teams that make up the league. That is on top of ludicrously high salary floors and guaranteed medical coverage for the rest of the player's life. The UAW (not sure if this is true anymore) had semi-skilled laborers on assembly lines making something like 90k a year, including benefits.

[Gatorfooseball08 2]

Lithium, I understand when people aren't a big fan of capitalism, but what other option do you prefer??? And it would be easy for us to keep jobs in the states if we would simply start tariffs on imported goods just like every other nation and quit giving the corporations moving jobs overseas big tax breaks.

[///M5 2,833]

Unions in developed countries are ALWAYS a bad thing. Just like unregulated Monopolies.

I would also add that the wealth chart you showed is a hock of leftist marketing crap. Bottom line is this. You want to do EVERYTHING possible to motivate the motivated, if you don't you will be left with a bunch of people who don't care about furthering the good and when that happens you become a second world country. Look already at the problems that the US has globally in perception of our people. Are ANY of these from the group that is motivated to work hard?

I'll give you some socialist propaganda right here as well. I live in a nice neighborhood, real nice. I am 35. How did I get here? In elementary school I never worked for anything less than an A, I studied 3 musical instruments all through my schooling years (helps concentration a shit ton), worked my way into what is regarded as one of the top 3 liberal arts colleges in the country, achieved good grades and a Physics degree with a concentration in Acoustics. Since schooling I have been working on average 60+ hours a week to try and "make it". Our government, both local and federal is now about to pass legislation where my families disposable income will go DOWN if my wife continues to work. The tax increase will cost us more than she makes once we remove daycare and the new taxes in the bracket we are in. Now how the fuck does that make anysense? Let's encourage one of us to not work and because of it also collect less money by raising taxes.

I also know a TON of business owners that may have to opt out because of this as well. These are NOT the people that should be demotivated.

[///M5 2,833]

I realize that was about Unions which I hardly addressed.

How about this: an uneducated lifer at the UAW can easily make $100k/yr. He's never been motivated to even show up on time, nor try to better himself yet he gets paid more than many of your parents. That is absurd.

On top of that, I have two lovely personal stories to share about Unions and Socialist like governments.

I was doing some work for Ford at the Windsor engine plant. They contracted my company to be onsite for 2 days. They knew we needed power ahead of time, nothing special just 110v/20a. Needless to say I arrived and there was no extension cord. I could see the plug it went into (about 20' away). I had an extension cord with me, I asked my contact to plug it in. He said he couldn't without a Union Engineer. We waited all day and no Union Engineer came. The next day at 2pm he finally came and gave us power. Ford paid us for 2 days worth of work and then had to pay for 2 more at double time since their Union just didn't want to show up.

In 1991 I lived in Moscow for half a year. It started with a May seminar with a local college. When I first arrived I lived on campus at the University in town. Outside my window everyday I could watch the landscaping team plant trees. There were three guys. One dug a hole, one put a tree in it, and the last filled the hole. Part way through my stay I noticed that they had stopped planting trees, but that there were still holes being dug and filled. I didn't understand and thought maybe they were planting flowers. My professor came up to us later on laughing and said she had found out what had happened. The guy who puts the tree in the hole was sick but the other two had to continue working so they did their job.

Both show/highlight Union mentality and socialist agenda's. Make everything equal so no one cares. I am diabolically opposed to that as a method of furthering our society. Everyone should have a carrot that if they want to chase they can go grab. The ones motivated even more should be able to chase a bigger carrot. Taking that away will devastate what made our country great.

[Dutchie. 10]

I would like to say this whole union thing is over my head, but

So.........yea........sick of sand.............especially sand boogers.

J

Yes sand and sand boogers do suck.

[///M5 2,833]

mdf boogers suck too

[dem beats 1,223]

Lithium, I know you're a MUCH smarter than average guy. I probably could have been more gentle in the way you asked your questions but I was making a point. I have a TON of personal history on both sides of the union line. Not once yet have I seen the union help the people who actually do the work. Even when they "help" the employee, 90% of the time it's actually a new way of controlling them, and taking the focus off of the fact that unions are now for political issues and making crap loads of money for people who want to appear giving, and righteous.

[dem beats 1,223]

SERVICE EMPLOYEES (SEIU)

Local 113

675 STINSON BOULEVARD

MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55413

Financial Information

Total Assets: $ 4,007,050

Total Receipts: $ 9,299,806

Membership

Total Membership: 15,741

Source: Department of Labor, Office of Labor Managements Standards LM filings

Financial Disbursements

Search Financial

Disbursement Records

search this union search all unions

Representational Activities ( 34.2%) $ 3,159,269 more detailed information

Political Activities & Lobbying ( 3.6%) $ 328,711 more detailed information

Contributions, Gifts & Grants ( 0.4%) $ 38,052 more detailed information

General Overhead ( 13.0%) $ 1,203,154 more detailed information

Union Administration ( 3.5%) $ 319,320 more detailed information

Strike Benefits ( 0.0%) $ 0

Per Capita Tax ( 29.3%) $ 2,708,149

Education & Publication Expenses ( 0.0%) $ 0

Professional Fees ( 0.0%) $ 0

Leadership

Highest Paid Local 113 Leaders & Staff

Name Title Total Compensation

$ 258,965

Julie Schnell President $ 129,094

Shane Davis Secretary-treasurer $ 96,119

Jigme Ugen Executive Vice President $ 87,599

David Blanchard Delegate $ 86,152

Jamie Gulley Staff Director $ 84,305

Edward Wigg Internal Organizer $ 80,213

Ryan Nagle Director $ 77,705

Deborah Nelson Member Resource Center $ 76,664

Steve Hunt Internal Organizer $ 75,588

Total assets: $ 4,007,050

Members: 15,741

ULPs filed since 2000: 18

Decertification petitions filed since 2000: 11

http://www.unionfacts.com/unions/unionProfile.cfm?id=57419

This info is all from the DOL too apparently.

[dem beats 1,223]

The people represented by this loving and caring union get paid the least, pay more for insurance, have less independance, and scratch at 50 bucks a month in dues. WTF!!??

If the company didn't have to pay lawyers to negotiate and deal with ever single triffling union issue how many more people could they hire? How much better equipment could these workers get? How much more food could they give their family if they didn't pay into the union.

I also know how your chart shows there is a constant increase in wages. While I think that's actually a bad thing, let me share with you how that gets augmented in statistics to show a much higher average. The union will represent 10,000 low cost labaor jobs. Then they will represent one small group of very highly compensated people. They butter the highly compensated employee's toast on both sides through some sweet sounding negotiations. Then when they use a dollar amount to show average wage increases it sounds all super fantastic. However it's not a large percentage increase.

They also end up ultimately contributing to the fire the old over paid bunch, and hire some cheeper labor. Since Jim Bob doesn't have to actually work after his 3rd year, he can sit on his laurels for another 25 years until it's pension time. However, constantly the company is forced to make life hell for anyone who actually does have to work. The qualified and dedicated people leave, due to crappy work conditions. What Sean talked about at Ford isn't isolated, and it sure isn't limited to outside consulting. The union will make life hell for other unions, or even other union employees.

[dem beats 1,223]

truth top!

[dem beats 1,223]

The bottom line is that there is no reason we should encourage wasteful behavior, yet, that is what we do. We encourage unemployment, we encourage the forfeiture of debt and pride, and we punish those who have never asked for a similar hand out.

Sean lives in a real nice area. I didn't. I grew up in a place not so far down the road that had at one point the highest rate of per capita hand gun shootings. Over 75% of my school was below the poverty line. My dad died when I was really young, so my mom worked to provide. Since she worked to hard, she made 2 grand a year too much for assistance or something like that. So she had to provide me with lunch or lunch money. The families who didn't make as much got a cash stipend to pay for that lunch in addition to the "free lunch" program. In the end, the total compensation they then received was more than(and I mean much much much more) the deficit between what my mom earned and what those that were below the poverty line did. Yup that makes sense. That created this cycle or people trying to make sure that they NEVER went above that line. It was also encouraged by the teachers at the school as they would get more funding for the more lower income students they had in the school. The low income houses would then hide the money they made, and switch over to cash only trades. Jobless mother and fathers would pick up their kids off at school in caddy's or a new lexus, and sometimes the occasional hot rod town car or $80,000 tuned up rice rocket. They still wanted nice things, it's just now to get it, the money was all under the table. You want to know why drugs are previlent in lower income areas? Look at how the school and welfare reps push families to make LESS. On paper they are broke, but they sure as hell cycle through a lot of cash. The worst part is none of them put any of it away to save, because then it would show up on the books someday, and the gravey train will stop.

In fact at one point, they went so far to enforce a rule that if you didn't have your parents fill out your "free lunch" card you would be expelled. As is not even come to school. Then your parent would be forced to take a day off to come in, and you better hope that the officer in the school didn't catch you while trying to come to school while you were expelled. Then you would end up in a juvinile detention center.

In the end, the unions, the administration, everyone was limited and motivated by money, and the freedom to buy what they want. It's capitalism no matter what you do. Trying to stop it is what every large empire has dealt with. Socialism and the forced re-distribution of wealth is unethical. Telling people it's ok, just do what we tell you and we will provide, is immoral. It sounds good, it's pretty, but it's just a lie. Everyone want's nice things, everyone and taking away the motivation for people to do better is just plain foolish. Some people might work harder to fill in the gaps because they have pride, and since they take up the slack more work gets heapped upon fewer and those that worked harder are given the SAME reward as those who did nothing.

[Penguin4x4 1,761]

Refer to Table 1 on this page:

http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html

that being said, the Republicans whining and bitching and moaning about how they would block any and all legislation unless they got their 3% tax cut was a douche move

[Penguin4x4 1,761]

Socialism and the forced re-distribution of wealth is unethical. Telling people it's ok, just do what we tell you and we will provide, is immoral.

Correct. "Telling people it's OK, just do what we tell you" mentality only works for social issues, not economic ones.

[Penguin4x4 1,761]

Socialism and the forced re-distribution of wealth is unethical. Telling people it's ok, just do what we tell you and we will provide, is immoral.

Correct. "Telling people it's OK, just do what we tell you" mentality only works for social issues, not economic ones.

Off the top of my head: the 13th, 14th, 15th, 19th, and 24th Amendments, Civil Rights Acts of '64, Voting Rights Act, Pregnancy Discrimination Act, Age Discrimination in Employment Act, Americans with Disabilities Act, Wagner Act

[Penguin4x4 1,761]

[nem 2,019]

Good reads in the HOP today!

WOW! I can tell you this the unions sure did a bang up job for the paper industry! Just look at Clinton County PA.

[topgun 262]

I love sending out invoices.