Just for FI....

[jonbearsmt 919]

WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON HERE,..... HE JUST SAID THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF YOU AND YOU SAID HE MADE YOUR POINT

Why?

Because I'm kind of new here, but one thing I have noticed, pretty much daily are quotes like this-

"BTL will need more power which means more electrical upgrades which means blah blah blah"

About 10-20 young guys (and girls) really interested in audio who really want to learn get a little dumber every time something like this is posted...

LETS DO THIS OVER AGAIN THEN

fine get a btl and run 500 watts on it and see how you like it

[95Honda 486]

funny tho.. i have yet to hear anyone that owns a btl that DOES NOT FEED IT OVER 2k....

or any big sub like that.

Don't take me the wrong way. I'm a guy who has a pair of XXX18s and 5KW rms in my living room..

But I also see a lot of misinformation spread all the time, and this is one of those times. We are here to help each other, best way to do that is to get the facts straight when you give people advice. And saying a BTL needs more power to be any louder than any othe FI sub, is, well.... misinformation...

[chrispizzitola 0]

Damn people keep on saying different things. the question is what will be the loudest sub off 500 watts? BTL, SSD, Q, BL.

[jonbearsmt 919]

Damn people keep on saying different things. the question is what will be the loudest sub off 500 watts? BTL, SSD, Q, BL.

that was not the question.

[95Honda 486]

Damn people keep on saying different things. the question is what will be the loudest sub off 500 watts? BTL, SSD, Q, BL.

The BTL, off 1 watt, 10 watts or 500 watts. That was the point of this whole thread...

Edited June 11, 2008 by 95Honda

[KU40 173]

I saw all this coming from the first post because I understood where 95Honda was going.

Bigjon, I don't think you're realizing just which point he was saying hondaccord and hayes made. I believe he's going in the direction about him making the point of misinformation being spread. Not that the BTL wouldn't be louder with 500 watts.

I suppose some people could make the point that they think subs sound better or whatever when being pushed near capacity than when they're only receiving fractional power. Which could be a matter of opinion, though most parameter graphs would dispute that. and yeah I know about not receiving actual RMS power 99.9% of the time with music, I'm just saying.......

I know my SI D2 sounded good off of only 200 watts . Maybe even better than with 1000. I think some of it had to do with the amps, though. One being a big class D and the other a smaller AB. *sigh* yeah I'm one of those who thinks there may be an audible difference between D and AB

[cjosisek90 0]

Damn people keep on saying different things. the question is what will be the loudest sub off 500 watts? BTL, SSD, Q, BL.

The BTL, off 1 watt, 10 watts or 500 watts. That was the point of this whole thread...

this thread should of been over with, its been answered.

On a 1w basis the BTL is the most 'efficient'

But you must take into account that speakers in general are very very very inefficient...

This is why we rate products given RMS standards...if you have x amount of power then look at this series of woofers..

[jonbearsmt 919]

funny tho.. i have yet to hear anyone that owns a btl that DOES NOT FEED IT OVER 2k....

or any big sub like that.

Don't take me the wrong way. I'm a guy who has a pair of XXX18s and 5KW rms in my living room..

But I also see a lot of misinformation spread all the time, and this is one of those times. We are here to help each other, best way to do that is to get the facts straight when you give people advice. And saying a BTL needs more power to be any louder than any othe FI sub, is, well.... misinformation...

then why dont you run 500 watts to your xxx's? why are you running 5k to them?

[95Honda 486]

Errr, OK, think we lost you on this one...

Have fun with this, I'm gonna crash for the night (it's 11:30 here in Germany) Holler at you guys in the (my) morning.

Later.

-Mike

Edited June 11, 2008 by 95Honda

[jonbearsmt 919]

I saw all this coming from the first post because I understood where 95Honda was going.

Bigjon, I don't think you're realizing just which point he was saying hondaccord and hayes made. I believe he's going in the direction about him making the point of misinformation being spread. Not that the BTL wouldn't be louder with 500 watts.

I suppose some people could make the point that they think subs sound better or whatever when being pushed near capacity than when they're only receiving fractional power. Which could be a matter of opinion, though most parameter graphs would dispute that. and yeah I know about not receiving actual RMS power 99.9% of the time with music, I'm just saying.......

I know my SI D2 sounded good off of only 200 watts . Maybe even better than with 1000. I think some of it had to do with the amps, though. One being a big class D and the other a smaller AB. *sigh* yeah I'm one of those who thinks there may be an audible difference between D and AB

ok.. i may still not be understanding this,

all i see is ONE MORE person DOING ONE THING.. and saying another.\\

cause you cant be telling me all this was just making a point you dont HAVE TO RUN big power.

[KU40 173]

funny tho.. i have yet to hear anyone that owns a btl that DOES NOT FEED IT OVER 2k....

or any big sub like that.

Don't take me the wrong way. I'm a guy who has a pair of XXX18s and 5KW rms in my living room..

But I also see a lot of misinformation spread all the time, and this is one of those times. We are here to help each other, best way to do that is to get the facts straight when you give people advice. And saying a BTL needs more power to be any louder than any othe FI sub, is, well.... misinformation...

then why dont you run 500 watts to your xxx's? why are you running 5k to them?

I don't want to take the words out of 95's mouth or try to represent him, but I believe the point he's getting at is that you don't NEED 5000 watts. At 500 watts the BTL should still be the loudest of the FI bunch because of its higher efficiency. However you can obviously get even louder with the BTL due to its higher power handling than the rest. Which is also why he has 5k on his XXX's. He doesn't NEED it, he WANTS it to get even louder.

[BKOLFO4 29]

then why dont you run 500 watts to your xxx's? why are you running 5k to them?

You still missed the point. You don't need that much, he just runs that much because he wants it louder.

The point is that comments like "you don't want to run a BTL because you only have 1000 watts" or "you only have 1000 watts so run a BL not a BTL, the BTL will not sound good with only 1000 watts" are false.

I am not saying the BTL is the subwoofer for all applications, but the reasons some people post for not using a BTL are incorrect.

Brian

[KU40 173]

ok.. i may still not be understanding this,

all i see is ONE MORE person DOING ONE THING.. and saying another.\\

cause you cant be telling me all this was just making a point you dont HAVE TO RUN big power.

The problem is when people say "the BTL won't get loud off of only 500 watts, you should get the BTL." The truth is that because the BTL has higher efficiency, it should be louder off of 1 watt, 10 watts, 100 watts, 500 watts, 5000 watts, etc., than the BL or any other FI sub.

so when somebody comes on and says "I want an FI sub, what would be loudest off of 200 watts?" The answer should be "BTL."

edit- brian beat me to it.

Edited June 11, 2008 by KU40

[BKOLFO4 29]

I don't want to take the words out of 95's mouth or try to represent him, but I believe the point he's getting at is that you don't NEED 5000 watts. At 500 watts the BTL should still be the loudest of the FI bunch because of its higher efficiency. However you can obviously get even louder with the BTL due to its higher power handling than the rest. Which is also why he has 5k on his XXX's. He doesn't NEED it, he WANTS it to get even louder.

x2

[philsteroni 0]

i think the point that is trying to be made is that yes you can feed the btl 500watts and might be a bit louder than the other fi subs....but why the f*ck would you do that when you could buy a Q. yes it will probably be less loud but it will sound a million times better cost a couple hundred bucks less and will weigh less too.

[jonbearsmt 919]

funny tho.. i have yet to hear anyone that owns a btl that DOES NOT FEED IT OVER 2k....

or any big sub like that.

Don't take me the wrong way. I'm a guy who has a pair of XXX18s and 5KW rms in my living room..

But I also see a lot of misinformation spread all the time, and this is one of those times. We are here to help each other, best way to do that is to get the facts straight when you give people advice. And saying a BTL needs more power to be any louder than any othe FI sub, is, well.... misinformation...

then why dont you run 500 watts to your xxx's? why are you running 5k to them?

I don't want to take the words out of 95's mouth or try to represent him, but I believe the point he's getting at is that you don't NEED 5000 watts. At 500 watts the BTL should still be the loudest of the FI bunch because of its higher efficiency. However you can obviously get even louder with the BTL due to its higher power handling than the rest. Which is also why he has 5k on his XXX's. He doesn't NEED it, he WANTS it to get even louder.

ok, but i cant understand how btl can be louder then any of the other subs on 500 watts.

the way i would understand it is that if you get the rms of the subs closer to the output of the at 500 watts. that the rms sub would be louder then the underpowered.

and im not just pondering thoughts, i have done it.. i have owned many many types of subs and amps.

500 watts on a 3200 watt rms sub was not louder then 300 watts on a 500 watt rms sub.

UNELSS YOUR TELLING ME THAT I DONT UNDERSTAND efficiency and in that case you are right. and i am wrong...

and then i will say sorry to mike and anyone else...

but i will have to buy a btl. and test that for my self.

[audio-neon 34]

Just an FYI from a person who often says that electrical upgrades will be needed... People who buy a BTL aren't buying it to run 1000 watts on it. People get this perceived notion that you need over 2kw rms. I don't say that you do, I just point out that with a sub woofer system like this, asking for 2kw+ will require electrical upgrades in a car audio environment.

We aren't trying to "dumb people down" rather educate them on the fact that there is more to car audio than big amps and subs.

If you have 1000 watt amp and I suggest to buy a Q or SSD with flat-wind it is because you have the right amount of power for those subs and I'm not saying that it will be louder than a BTL. I'm saying that it is the right driver for the amount of power you can provide.

If people are often after commanding low-end I suggest the Q, it has a lower FS and more x-max than a BL.

Like I said, we aren't just sitting here wasting minutes of our life typing responses in the effort to make people stupid. And on the same token, we are just human too and can't possibly be perfect. There are soo many changes in the car audio industry that for some of us who take pride in taking the big-brother role to a new member, that sometimes we get #'s mixed or tiny mis-truths can happen. I for one, know that myself is more than willing to admit my mistakes.

And hell, maybe Fi could do us all a favor and put 1 of each woofer (15" for similarity sake) on a 1000 watt amp in a car and give us a TL comparison.

[LDW3RD 0]

wow! i learned something new. and it been in my face all the while.

efficiency: The ratio of the effective or useful output to the total input in any system.

does this help?

[BKOLFO4 29]

500 watts on a 3200 watt rms sub was not louder then 300 watts on a 500 watt rms sub.

That could very well be. It was not the RMS rating of the subwoofer, it was the efficency of the two drivers. One was more efficent.

If driver A has a 94 dB 1w/1m rating, and driver B has an 84 dB 1w/1m rating, driver A will be louder at 1 watt, does not matter how much power each driver can handle.

[audio-neon 34]

500 watts on a 3200 watt rms sub was not louder then 300 watts on a 500 watt rms sub.

That could very well be. It was not the RMS rating of the subwoofer, it was the efficency of the two drivers. One was more efficent.

If driver A has a 94 dB 1w/1m rating, and driver B has an 84 dB 1w/1m rating, driver A will be louder at 1 watt, does not matter how much power each driver can handle.

Just since we are making an effort to learn something today, that statement was true, but it might not be true at 2000, or 4000, or 6000 watts. Basically what I am saying is that efficiency rated at 1w/1m isn't everything, it's not the bigger picture in this equation.

Driver A might be a sub rated for 500 watts rms, 1000 peak

Driver B might be a sub rated for 5000 watts rms, 15000 peak.

Driver A will hit mechanical and thermal limitations and severely loose output as more power is applied until it fails.

Driver B is built for more power, has a stiffer suspension and a higher thermal handling voice coil. Driver B will continue to gain effective loudness well after Driver A has failed.

I also want to point out that Driver A's loudness @ 500 watts should be about equal to driver B's loudness @ 5000 watts. Due to the 10dB efficiency difference. In the real world, we see ~2dB for every doubling of power. It takes 10x as much power to see a 10dB increase if you aren't dealing with driver compression at that point.

[jonbearsmt 919]

well i feel like i learned somthing, and i wanna learn more about it...

bko your right i have told people not to get the btl because thay only wanted to run a 1000 watts. thats true...

when someone ask about a btl i feel like thay should know it takes power... and it takes power to make power.

i donno if im projecting my thoughts well.

efficiency is somthing i need to learn more about as i said,

one time that i tested my thoughts,

jl 500/1 on a hifonics goliath 3200 watt 12

and then again on a jl w6 15's 600 watts peak or so

jl was much louder. so it was efficiency and efficiency only? nothing to do with RMS

[audio-neon 34]

bigjon; rms and peak ratings are manufacturer suggestions. They are based on a safe thermal/mechanical level for the driver to be played at to give the average consumer a good performance without too much risk for them to blow their new woofers.

Efficiency is everything at low power.

[BKOLFO4 29]

edit - Man this thread is moving fast - in response to Audio neon above:

You are correct, we have to assume we stay within the limitations of the driver.

There are also other factors that would make big differences in the overall performance. Driver Fs is a big one.

Not to mention the install itself makes a big difference in the actual SPL and what we hear. I have said many times my (4) 15's "sound" much louder playing music than my (2) 18's did (and they were both MT's on the same total power). Metered within .2 dB of each other - but the 15's peak 7 Hz lower making a BIG difference in how loud they sound playing music.

Brian

Edited June 11, 2008 by BKOLFO4

[jonbearsmt 919]

bigjon; rms and peak ratings are manufacturer suggestions. They are based on a safe thermal/mechanical level for the driver to be played at to give the average consumer a good performance without too much risk for them to blow their new woofers.

Efficiency is everything at low power.

son of a bitch.

sorry guys:D

[BKOLFO4 29]

We are all here to learn. . .still learning myself.

Like I said, that does not mean the BTL is for everyone, but if you have a true 1000 watts, that is a lot of power to drive just about any sub to a respectable level.

Brian