i think i wanna buy a hand gun

[mrray13 30]

The SR9 is not on the short list, actually. It's a gun that I'm buying. The short list is for another gun in addition to the SR9. Planning on buying several before the end of the year. The short list is currently for gun 2 (compact 9mm): Taurus 24/7, S&W M&P and Springfield xD compact. The short list for the 3rd gun (newer 1911): Taurus PT1911, STI Tactical and a couple of different Kimbers.

.357 SIG is a necked down .40 using a 9mm projectile. Ballistics are almost exactly like the .357 Mag. It had some real growing pains as well. The first company that made ammo for it almost killed the cartidge before it ever got off the ground. They had a serious problem with case ruptures and had to recall all the ammo on the market leaving a group of consumers with weapons and no ammo for them.

of the compacts, the only one, IMO, that is truely a compact is the m&p. and the only reason i say that is that is has a lower then normal slide height. the taurus and the xD are hugely tall in the slide department and as thus, takes them away from being a compact. simply shorting the barrel and grip, IMO again, simply does not make it compact.

STI is a great choice. nighthawk is one i'm looking at quite hard, though budget says they might be a bit high. if you're looking at taurus, look at s&w for there 1911s as well. one can get quite a bit for the money with a smith.

i want a .357sig, but honestly don't know what for, lol. i guess that would be on my short list, possibly in a glock frame, maybe in a sig frame. another 1911 will find it's way into my home, though it won't be a kimber. teh s&w is real high, as is springfield, on that list. no budget, would definitely be looking at nighthawk, reeder or any other of the custom shops.

wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[helotaxi 46]

of the compacts, the only one, IMO, that is truely a compact is the m&p. and the only reason i say that is that is has a lower then normal slide height. the taurus and the xD are hugely tall in the slide department and as thus, takes them away from being a compact. simply shorting the barrel and grip, IMO again, simply does not make it compact.

For my hands, the thing i care most about is the shortened slide. With the ones on that list I'd probably consider adding a grip extender and running full size mags. One of the big ones that I forgot off that list is the Sig 250. It's probably the front runner at this point. I'll fondle a few and make my choice on that one once I get home.

Yeah, I'll give the Smith 1911 (and the SIG) a look as well. I haven't put down a budget on the new 1911 yet but the longer I can put it off, the higher the budget will be.

There is also the matter of my ARs to be purchased as well...DPMS LR-204 for a varmint gun. Another lower with a pair of uppers; one a Stag most likely or another brand that runs a Wylde chamber in .223/5.56 and a Kotonics in 6.8SPC.

[ddeitz 0]

id say more rounds the better, look at police shootings (because they are what we have most data on) it is very common for them to put the first 1-2 rounds in the ground and then miss several more with a target being very close to them. So i say more the round the better!

[helotaxi 46]

Having worked with a lot of cops, they are some of the worst shots I've ever seen. Most don't practice any more than they are FORCED to. If you want good data based on guys that actually train with their weapons look at SWAT and the LAPD SIS. SWAT usually hits with 90% of their shots and SIS with 95%. More ammo is still no substitute for training and becomes something of a crutch if you think about it that way.

[Godsmack 361]

Having worked with a lot of cops, they are some of the worst shots I've ever seen. Most don't practice any more than they are FORCED to. If you want good data based on guys that actually train with their weapons look at SWAT and the LAPD SIS. SWAT usually hits with 90% of their shots and SIS with 95%. More ammo is still no substitute for training and becomes something of a crutch if you think about it that way.

Hence why being in the unit I am in sucks ass.

I would go to the range every month if I could but NOOOOOOOOOOO

Asshats

[ddeitz 0]

Having worked with a lot of cops, they are some of the worst shots I've ever seen. Most don't practice any more than they are FORCED to. If you want good data based on guys that actually train with their weapons look at SWAT and the LAPD SIS. SWAT usually hits with 90% of their shots and SIS with 95%. More ammo is still no substitute for training and becomes something of a crutch if you think about it that way.

I was using normal police stats for a reason though.You are obviously correct not alot of them practice, i can say the same for normal gun owners. However with SWAT and other forms of emergancy response units, they are highly trained more so then 99.99 percent of gun owners and people in general. But that aside.

They are going into every situation with full intent to shoot. They are 100 percent ready when they are going to be using their guns. The average joe using it for self defence could be drawing from the holster like police. Or scrambling to find it when someone breaks into his house.

You are scared, adrenaline is flowing your fingers do not have the dexterity anymore. You have a very high chance of missing shots. Hell i have been in situations where i cannot even use my keys let alone do anything complicated.

And yes police on average are not the greatest shots, but when it does come to having to fire i bet they are alot more clam then a normal person would be who is a better shot then they are due to the nature of their everday job.

Edited June 30, 2008 by ddeitz

[dem beats 1,223]

Can you provide something that referances the 9mm you refereanced to the equal in a .45 and how the .45 has more penitrating chance? It makes sense that it could be true, it just goes against what I have been told by other sources, and then the common misconception of stopping vs. penetrating.

The FBI ballisitics protocols: http://www.greent.com/40Page/general/fbitest.htm

The expansion properties of .45 JHP rounds (or lack thereof) was discussed in this month's issue of Combat Handguns. Other than the Barnes X-bullet (loaded by CorBon only unless you reload) the basic concensus is that the normal .45 JHP simply doesn't move fast enough to reliably expand, that this is made worse by using a short barrel handgun, but that the round itself is large enough that it doesn't need to expand much. There is a reason that John Browning made the 1911 with a 5" barrel.

There was an article a few months ago in Handgunner (gun mags are about the only reading material that I can get over here) talking about the history of the bad rep that the 9mm has for being a manstopper and how that was all based on a single recent incident (where you could see through the assailant he had been shot so many times, ie a shotgun blast wouldn't have stopped him either) and the ineffectiveness of the 9mm FMJ (terrible about through-and-through wounds but no worse than .45 FMJ) and older ammo designs. The bottom line of that article was that with modern ammo the 9mm has a street record about 1% lower (most effective load to most effective load) than the .45 ACP in achieving 1 shot stops. Both are in the mid 90% range.

I will have to go to the website when I get home from work. Our office doesn't beleive in the first amendment, or at least learning about the different options to follow it.

Helo, thank you for the info. This is exactly the post I was hoping to get from you before. Cheers sir!

[dem beats 1,223]

Wouldn't mind squeezing off a round or two in .500 S&W Magnum or .50 BMG just for the hell of it either

I do believe you mean a .50AE, they don't make a handgun in .50BMG.

No I meant the .50 BMG rifle round...I'm sure you could make a concealed carry carbine foldable stock .50 BMG gun

I'd love to see someone make a snub nosed .500 S&W magnum even more

I have seen a .50 in a derenger style gun. Double trigger 2 round. He said it was for when bear hunting and you needed something verry small on your side, with big power.

I call it BS.

[dem beats 1,223]

The Dan Wesson Razorback was resurrected in 10mm as well; Kimber makes one, too.

As far as the Kimber warranty thing, yep that's BS. That would explain why every dealer I've seen that carrys Kimber keeps one in stock (that's not for sale) and places the order for the customer's gun when the gun is purchased.

I've heard of problems with every brand of gun mentioned, FWIW. Have a big enough sample population and the problems will show up. Of course you rarely hear from the satisfied customers, it's the small percentage that have problem that tell the world. It's that way with everything.

Heard of lots of problems with a lot of the S&W handguns though I've heard also that they've fixed most of their QC issues. A compact M&P is on my short list of 9mm's.

Taurus has a bit of a reputation for inconsistency. A weapon from them is usually either superb or a total POS. I've been considering one of the 24/7 OSS 9s as well as one of their 1911s but I'll do more some more research to see what kind of problems have been cropping up especially since the PT 1911 is so new. I know that the first several batches of the OSS in .45 had some serious feed problems (magazine related). The nice thing about Taurus is that they will make it right, the bad thing is that it might take a LONG time.

I would say regardless, do some research on the gun forums. You do have to take a lot of what you read on there with a grain of salt because each of the boards has their sacred brand and their pariah brand just like the car audio forums.

Find the size a caliber weapon that you want and then start doing research. in all honesty, it's pretty hard to go genuinely wrong with any of the big name makers anymore.

After the purchase, if you're planning on carrying the gun wring it out pretty good. Run some good ammo through it to make sure that it will cycle reliably (at least 100 round preferably more). Then run some of the ammo you plan to carry through it to make sure that it shoots where you aim and cycles well. Disassemble and inspect the stressed parts several times during this process. This is where any casting/forging flaws will appear. The gun should still be under warranty at this point so take it back and let the maker make it right. Check all your mags for reliability as well; the gun may be perfect but insert a crappy mag and even the best guns become little more than expensive, short awkward clubs.

That is a great post!

Amazing quote too. A gun not working... one of my favorite lines when talking to gun noobs. Words to live by.

[vladd 26]

I"d look over the smiths really well before buying. I've heard and seen a couple examples of really really poor guns making it out the door. My roommate bought one about 8months ago and it is simply not made well. The kind of quality you'd expect from a gun half its price.

i'll always stand behind springfield. they have excellent customer service from everyone i've ever heard about. The only thing is they wouldn't fix my gun for free when it was throwing shells back in my damn face, but i had already had a gunsmith work on it twice at that point (other things) so i don't blame that on them at all.

The taurus 1911 is supposed to be a damn fine gun but i've heard of a LOT of people that have problems with the ambi safety breaking because it's not installed completely when they get it. of course not really an issue considering what you get for the price of the gun and how cheap an ambi safety can be had for.

[dem beats 1,223]

I'm with Helo on the longer grip. My palm is so wide I need the extra length. My fingers are a bit... shall I say stumpy. I love my 1911.. Mine is an Springfield, FWIW. The tritium dots, on it are about the only special feature and I would say I can blow about 250 rounds using junk ammo with no problem. I had an issue with one extended length mag that would jam the first round, but none of the rest. The gentleman I purchased the gun from took it back handed me a new one and got the company to replace it for him. I will say it's one of the most reliable weapons I've ever put rounds through. Wheel guns always feel a but more robust, but for a semi, it's

[mrray13 30]

Having worked with a lot of cops, they are some of the worst shots I've ever seen. Most don't practice any more than they are FORCED to. If you want good data based on guys that actually train with their weapons look at SWAT and the LAPD SIS. SWAT usually hits with 90% of their shots and SIS with 95%. More ammo is still no substitute for training and becomes something of a crutch if you think about it that way.

not only capacity us a crutch. several forces went to lasers for awhile, under the barrel type, and at first accuracy went up. but what happens if the laser doesn't work or you forget to turn it on? they found out the cops couldn't shoot using iron sights after getting used to the laser. bye bye laser. which is why none of my home defense guns carry any kind of electronic sight. a good set of night sights and that is all that is needed.

i want an ar as well, but i want a piston driven version. the normal gas impingment version just doesn't float me interest. i'm not a stickler for cleaning, lol. teh 204 ruger has gotten my attention, as well as the 6.8 grendel and .50 beowulf. the 6.8spc is getting some serious looks as well. but who knows? i love the way the .223 shoots.

wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[devil_dawg713 0]

finally something i can advise on!!! what r u lookin 4 n a gun? just 2keep in ur ride n home? or on u when riding n goin out n at the house? i personally have a springfield XD .45. they r awesome. for all of the mentiond above. no moving external parts, visual indecations for when ur cocked, and when 1s n the chamber. theres no conventional safey either, its a grip and trigger saftey. which means unlike the glock and berretta n most pistols, u can SAFLEY carry it with 1 n the chamber. springfield makes a 9mm and 40 and a 357 all in XD. there also reliable. i put 350 rounds through it brand new n a week with no stoppages. total ive put at least 2000 with ZERO probs. def check it out

[mrray13 30]

funny, i carry my glock in condition 1 all the time, never an issue. you'd have to drop it and something hit the trigger jsut right. seems as though the trigger safety in teh xD, sigma, m&p and walthers all were copied from someone....oh yeah!! glock. who, btw, has it right.

and another note, ANY safety can malfunction. so jsut because one has a sidearm with multipule safeties doesn't make it any better then a sidearm with just one. also, what if you don't grab your xD correctly? you pull the trigger and no bang. and it is an issue with any grip safety ever invented. why do you think every 1911 on the planet, save mil spec versions, all have bumped grip safeties?

the moment one assumes all is well because the safety is on, is the moment when it can all go wrong.

wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[devil_dawg713 0]

u carry it cond 1 all u want big dawg. sounds like ur former military so u know wut ur doin, but ive seen on the news a couple ppl grave there glocks that were cond 1 n shoot themselves. and i no bs knew a guy n my last command that had a glock17 cond 1, took it out his pants and shot a hole through them. i laughed when he told me but im sure it scared that crap outa him. im giving my personal opionin on my pistol and i would def recomd it 2 any1 lookin 4 a self protection pistol.

off topic, i saw on a thread u fight, wut kind? i boxed all my youth, n i been trainin mma. im hopin 2 get into a tournament sumtime n sept

[mrray13 30]

please don't misunderstand me, i'm not trying to dog the xD. but i don't want someone givng the wrong impression to a firearm no0b either. i don't care if the pistol has 20 safeties, it doesn't replace training and common sense. and accidents happen, safety on or off. if people shot themselves pulling their firearm, it was user error and poor training. not firearm design. one can grab an xD and shoot themselves in the foot with poor technique and training.

i'm not military, lol. i am diligent in firearms and training to use them.

i'm currently enrolled is a school that teaches what amounts to mixed martial arts, lol. there are roughly seven different styles we learn, including training for mma fighting. i'm also hoping for my first fight around september, though it might get put back. we shall see.

and i'm not trying to degrade your opinion. i just don't want your opinion to be mistaken as fact. hope you understand.

wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[Stephan 0]

I love my Glock 30 -- It only has a trigger safety, I've carried it cocked without a problem, but don't suggest doing so. I'm very careful when drawing it, and only carry it cocked during times I feel I might need it. I always remember to draw with my finger on the slide rather than on the trigger. Common sense also greatly decreases the chance of a mishaps.

[devil_dawg713 0]

please don't misunderstand me, i'm not trying to dog the xD. but i don't want someone givng the wrong impression to a firearm no0b either. i don't care if the pistol has 20 safeties, it doesn't replace training and common sense. and accidents happen, safety on or off. if people shot themselves pulling their firearm, it was user error and poor training. not firearm design. one can grab an xD and shoot themselves in the foot with poor technique and training.

i'm not military, lol. i am diligent in firearms and training to use them.

i'm currently enrolled is a school that teaches what amounts to mixed martial arts, lol. there are roughly seven different styles we learn, including training for mma fighting. i'm also hoping for my first fight around september, though it might get put back. we shall see.

and i'm not trying to degrade your opinion. i just don't want your opinion to be mistaken as fact. hope you understand.

wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

cool. yes i def agree about responsible gun owners. good luck n ur fight

[Godsmack 361]

As kent said knowledge, training and responsibilites cannot be over used.

Safeties can be a great tool, but they don't solve it all. they don't GUARENTEE its gonna work 100% of the time.

I mean shit when was the last time u saw a gun maker give a 100% life back guarentee that the safety is perfect? Cause I never seen it.

I know when downrange we had an M16 accident in another unit. dude thought his weapon was clear and picked it up. He didn't have the safety off, and tripped on a rock. When he fell the weapon discharged. Shell right into the girl infront of him's back. We thought the round went down range. We ended up finding out on the way back it went into the back of her vest and COMPLETLY fucked the plate. She didn't even feel it surprisingly.

Moral of the story? Make sure ur weapon is CLEAR and on SAFE at all times that you are not intending to fire it. Cause god knows he wasn't.

J

[helotaxi 46]

I know when downrange we had an M16 accident in another unit. dude thought his weapon was clear and picked it up. He didn't have the safety off, and tripped on a rock. When he fell the weapon discharged. Shell right into the girl infront of him's back. We thought the round went down range. We ended up finding out on the way back it went into the back of her vest and COMPLETLY fucked the plate. She didn't even feel it surprisingly.

Perfect example of why the AR series rifles are not cartried with a round in the chamber. There is no spring on the firing pin and no block for it either. Impact the muzzle of the weapon hard enough and it will discharge from the inertia of the firing pin.

Most autopistols are meant to be carried with one in the chamber. For a defensive weapon, you'd almost be stupid not to carry that way. You don't need to carry "cocked and locked" though many weapons are made to be carried that way as well. Whatever condition you carry in needs to be the condition that you practice from. Not just at the range, either. Practice drawing a cleared and empty weapon from your carry rig and readying it to fire (safety off, thumb cock a single action if you carry it hammer down, etc...)

No amount of ammo is a replacement for training. If you are not willing to train with your weapon to the point that employing it is second nature, you probably shouldn't be carrying it. You're more a hazzard with it than a help. Your average cop is only marginally qualified to carry a gun. Too few departments empahsize adequate training and when the bullets start to fly that training is what you have to be able to fall back on. Everyone who uses a weapon regularly is scared at that moment. Training is what gets them through it. It's just the same as with any complex task that needs to be performed under stress, repetitve, regular training is essential.

[mrray13 30]

I know when downrange we had an M16 accident in another unit. dude thought his weapon was clear and picked it up. He didn't have the safety off, and tripped on a rock. When he fell the weapon discharged. Shell right into the girl infront of him's back. We thought the round went down range. We ended up finding out on the way back it went into the back of her vest and COMPLETLY fucked the plate. She didn't even feel it surprisingly.

Perfect example of why the AR series rifles are not cartried with a round in the chamber. There is no spring on the firing pin and no block for it either. Impact the muzzle of the weapon hard enough and it will discharge from the inertia of the firing pin.

Most autopistols are meant to be carried with one in the chamber. For a defensive weapon, you'd almost be stupid not to carry that way. You don't need to carry "cocked and locked" though many weapons are made to be carried that way as well. Whatever condition you carry in needs to be the condition that you practice from. Not just at the range, either. Practice drawing a cleared and empty weapon from your carry rig and readying it to fire (safety off, thumb cock a single action if you carry it hammer down, etc...)

No amount of ammo is a replacement for training. If you are not willing to train with your weapon to the point that employing it is second nature, you probably shouldn't be carrying it. You're more a hazzard with it than a help. Your average cop is only marginally qualified to carry a gun. Too few departments empahsize adequate training and when the bullets start to fly that training is what you have to be able to fall back on. Everyone who uses a weapon regularly is scared at that moment. Training is what gets them through it. It's just the same as with any complex task that needs to be performed under stress, repetitve, regular training is essential.

can i get an amen???

even in the state i am now, drunk, i trust the practice, teh training i do, will keep me and my family safe. i will dry run my firearm more times then i care to admit, and why? jus tin case i need to do it for real. i don't have to think about it, i just do it.

wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[brent338 0]

Bigjon...

Get a Keltec P3AT, with crimson trace lazer... it will be bout $400.

it weights next to nothing... so you have no excuse to not have it on you.

It is more than enough for deffensive shooting... Ie 7 feet, although with the lazer we were dead nuts on at 15 yards or more. I mean same hole... I could not do that with my glocks or springfield XD if I tried.

And with GoldDot HP's its more than enough stopping power... I stress golddots... "bonded bullets" well,... electronically platted, more reliable expansion....

Its a little rough, and might take a few hundred rounds to break in... or do what I did, and (lightly!) sand polish the barrel, 600 grit wet/dry then up to 1500, with some oil. then grab the dremel & cloth bit, and use some jewelry rough, " home-depot" and presto... it looks nickel plated, and operates smoother than silk...

[mrray13 30]

same hole at 15yds? with a p3at? i call bullshit, even with a laser. i own one, have several hunderd rounds through it and at 15yds, with standard "sights", it's good to keep the full mag just in center mass. and yeah, i've polished the feed ramp as well, but that does nothing for accuracy. only reliability, and even then the gun is easy to jam by simply not holding it correctly. so you want to recommend a .380 sub-sub compact back-up, that even in second gen has had some issues, to a gun no0b to carry as a primary? and post your accuracy results on ktog.org, see how many people call you out, or offer to buy your p3at, lol.

i'm not trying to stir anything, but comeon. i want video proof of what your are claiming. until then,

wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[brent338 0]

wow.... ok you got me... not same hole, so what. but damn close. and as far as sub-sub compact goes for a newb...its better than getting something tooo big and leaving it at home.

look at the P3AT sales, you cant argue that its damn popular. yeah some people have problems with them , but then some people dont know what they are doing... I have had two of them, the 1st had problems, and was terribly inaccurate past 7 yds, but thats all cuz of the sight. I saw crimson trace made a grip for it, so did some more researching, on the jambing problems that most have had. polish the barrel ( THE WHOLE BARREL NOT JUST THE FEED RAMP), or shoot it to death.... and it works fine. so theres that covered.

I put on the lazer, it was dead nuts on at 15 paces... I mean turn a beer can on its side, " drink a few first dont waste any beer!" and IF you can manage the trigger... It goes where the dot is... tried picking out dime sized knots on a tree, fishing the other week... still right there. The main problem is trying to manage the terrible trigger, but its a carry gun and thats not the place for light triggers.... I have only shot it a couple of times, still quite new. but I'm damn impressed...

Its on me all summer long, when the weather gets colder, I switch back to my XD-45/G20 10mm... sure. I have better, bigger, and possible more accurate guns yeah, but 80% of the time I grab the keltek.

next time I got to a real range, with real ranged measured and set targets, I'll shoot a group @ and put up the pic./vid here... K? BTW I shoot with, or should I say; out-shoot a ex Airforce PJ... oh yeah he has tons of guns as well, and guess what he carry's most of the time? And who turned him onto it...?

I guess what I'm trying to say is that IMO, its the BEST carry gun, for the price, for most people, new or expert. because its always gonna be there when you need it.

but by all means if he has $1000 to blow... go get a Khar., or maybe a S&W scandium/titanium 357.

Edited July 6, 2008 by brent338

[mrray13 30]

wow.... ok you got me... not same hole, so what. but damn close. and as far as sub-sub compact goes for a newb...its better than getting something tooo big and leaving it at home.

look at the P3AT sales, you cant argue that its damn popular. yeah some people have problems with them , but then some people dont know what they are doing... I have had two of them, the 1st had problems, and was terribly inaccurate past 7 yds, but thats all cuz of the sight. I saw crimson trace made a grip for it, so did some more researching, on the jambing problems that most have had. polish the barrel ( THE WHOLE BARREL NOT JUST THE FEED RAMP), or shoot it to death.... and it works fine. so theres that covered.

I put on the lazer, it was dead nuts on at 15 paces... I mean turn a beer can on its side, " drink a few first dont waste any beer!" and IF you can manage the trigger... It goes where the dot is... tried picking out dime sized knots on a tree, fishing the other week... still right there. The main problem is trying to manage the terrible trigger, but its a carry gun and thats not the place for light triggers.... I have only shot it a couple of times, still quite new. but I'm damn impressed...

Its on me all summer long, when the weather gets colder, I switch back to my XD-45/G20 10mm... sure. I have better, bigger, and possible more accurate guns yeah, but 80% of the time I grab the keltek.

next time I got to a real range, with real ranged measured and set targets, I'll shoot a group @ and put up the pic./vid here... K? BTW I shoot with, or should I say; out-shoot a ex Airforce PJ... oh yeah he has tons of guns as well, and guess what he carry's most of the time? And who turned him onto it...?

I guess what I'm trying to say is that IMO, its the BEST carry gun, for the price, for most people, new or expert. because its always gonna be there when you need it.

but by all means if he has $1000 to blow... go get a Khar., or maybe a S&W scandium/titanium 357.

whoa, slow down. i don't even know where to start. but i'll say again, the p3at is no weapon for a beginner. and the best carry for price? not even close. what good will it do him if after he misses with the first shot, and i'll wager most will with the p3at, it's jammed because of a FTE? throw it at the person? he'll limp wrist it. most, if not all newbs to the gun will. even keltec will tell you that teh p3at is a BACKUP, not a primary. and it's not designed for 15yds, or 7yds, but more like 7ft.

polish the whole barrel? and just how in the hell am i supposed to do that? you polish the feed ramp, you can even take a lil aoff around the breech to aid in extraction/loading, but only if you know what the hell you are doing. get a washer for the recoil spring. that might help a bit in accuracy. but polish the whole barrel? what, the outside? and that does what?

and for a total newb, nothing beats a simple as hell snub nose DAO revolver. something along the lines of a ruger sp101, with a spur hammer in 327 magnum. holds 6 and is stronger the .380. (similiar performance to the 357mag.) and around $350-400. one can even grab a rossi .357 snub for right at the cost of a keltec, and it needs no work to be reliable. so just where does this $1k price tag come in? i've only paid that much for one gun and i sure as hell don't carry my 6" 1961 vintage python.

you want to bet your life on the keltec as a primary, that's fine. on occasion, in my fine state, i have to do the same. it's a great pocket gun, of that there is no doubt. but it's still just a backup, and it's sure as hell not intended for a beginner. regardless of price.

it's your opinion, and i have no problem with that. but in this case, and yeah, i'm being an ass, your opinion is just flat wrong.

wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee