i think i wanna buy a hand gun

[helotaxi 46]

I think you have good points, great in fact. Nothing wrong with the statement accept the compensating thing, I think that's kind of rude.

Depends on what you think i meant you were compensating for, now doesn't it? I could have meant your ability to hit your target...

Try to clear your head of your experience in the field for a moment though and lets take a look at what someone needs from a self defense weapon. The ability to shoot that gun and deal with the recoil from that weapon, and the abilility to conceal.

And the second directly contributes to the first and really is the crux of my argument. If the gun is going to be easily concealable and light enough for all-day carry, chambering it in a heavy caliber doesn't make the most snese from the point of view of being able to deal with the recoil and shoot the gun accurately.

From there I strongly feel your description of hitting a failure point is going to be verry unlikely for someone not in daily practice especialy when you take into account the lack of high adrenalyn training. If you haven't been in a situation before you will shake.

You don't develop the skills needed to survive and do the right thing in a very stressful situation by seeking out stressful situations and hoping that you survive them to gain the experience. You survive by honing the basic skills in a fairly low stress (or at least low threat) environment to the point that drawing, aiming and shooting to desired point of aim is reflex, not conscious act.

I'm 100% all about the ability to stop someone in one shot.

So am I, but I'm still going to fire two to center of mass regardless of the weapon that I'm shooting. The most important part of achieving a one shot stop is hitting the target on the first shot. The only way that will happen is with practice. If the weapon is not conducive to the amount of practice needed, it doesn't matter if it's a .50AE it will be a crappy weapon to rely on.

I know that people come up with cost frequently, but in this case, just like with the quality of ammo, cost shouldn't play a factor when taking a crap shoot with your life.

Ammo that I carry is one thing, I may never use a round of that except to confirm that the gun will feed it well. Ammo that I practice with is a totally different story, I want it to be cheap. Cheaper the ammo the more practice I can afford to get. The moe practice I can get the more reliable I'll be in a high stress situation.

The attitude you have is that someone will have the clarity of mind while protecting their fiance or someone they care about. I challenge you to have a calm cool collected ability to recognise a human target adjust aim for the knee/head after watching 2 rounds pass through that target, your wife screaming, now instead of 10 feet he's 5 feet away, and then remembering to squeeze not pull.

If you can't at least think clearly enough under stress to pick your point of aim, you don't need to be carrying a weapon. Hitting the point of aim, trigger control and the rest should be practiced to the point of reflex.

I think in a real life non combatant situation the 9mm round isn't optimal for 95% of the situations. If you need less recoil you can also find a gun that will have less. Maybe a revolver instead of a semi auto. More metal makes it much easier to control most of the time. Or maybe use a really tight suspension system on your auto.

Actually for REAL situations, the 9mm is MORE than adequate for 95% of the situations. The guys that use a handgun and rely on it for their life regularly in combat always use a full size gun as their primary handgun. It is usually chambered in .45 or .40. Notice that I said it was full sized. In a full sized weapon, yeah, I'll take a .45 every day and twice on Sunday. In a full sized/weight weapon, the .45 ACP cartridge is very controllable. Reduce the siz/weight of the weapon and the story changes dramatically. Guys that carry backup (cops) carry a smaller gun chambered for a smaller cartridge. Why? because it has enough power for an emergency (which is the only time it will be used...just like a concealed carry piece) and it has the right combination of being easy to conceal and still manageable to shoot.

I think it relates directly to more stopping and much less pass through likelyhood.

Good 9mm hollowpoints are actually less likely to overpenetrate than .45. They expand more violently and expand to a greater extend compared to their original size than a .45 round which actually don't expand very well at all because of their low velocity. If you don't practice, for whatever reason and don't hit what you're shooting at, overpenetration is moot.

Everyone has to choose what's right for them. I feel a lot better about my ability to stop a fight (should I be unfortunate enough to get into one) with a weapon that I'm comfortable shooting and have practiced enough with to be able to reliably hit what I'm shooting at every time. It just so happens that for a compact carry gun, that pretty much rules out most of the .45s on the market. I have a full size 1911 .45 that I love and while I have a big enough frame to conceal it and it's comfortable to shoot and combined with a .22 conversion kit, it's cheap to practice with, it's too heavy to carry regularly. My dad has a Glock 21 .45. It's full sized and I still hate shooting it. It shoots nicely enough with a full magazine but once the mag starts to empty out, it ceases to be nice to shoot, the CG of the weapon shifts way up and muzzle flip gets ridiculous. A Glock 9mm (as much as I dislike the Glocks anyway) doesn't suffer from the same problem.

FOR ME, a compact carry piece in 9mm is the right balance. It has enough power to stop a fight and it can be packaged such that it is small and light enough to carry all the time (that's the point, right?) and still be easy enough to shoot that you practice with it regularly, not to mention that 9mm ammo is less than 50% the cost of .45 or .40.

[dem beats 1,223]

Depends on what you think i meant you were compensating for, now doesn't it? I could have meant your ability to hit your target...

I would have rather you said I had a small dick honestly!

I loose.

I am large enough to conceal a 1911, or even a full xd .45. I also was also under the impression from a post some time back that Jon, the OP was big. Larger than me if I remember right.

I have no way to defend my statements as mine are based on local people here and my trustign of their information, LE, what I have seen myself, and my own personal ergonomics.

Can you provide something that referances the 9mm you refereanced to the equal in a .45 and how the .45 has more penitrating chance? It makes sense that it could be true, it just goes against what I have been told by other sources, and then the common misconception of stopping vs. penetrating.

[djjdnap 78]

yea i got my permit over 6 months ago, and have yet to buy one...

The glock seems to be the way im gonna go, most reliable from what ive heard

[helotaxi 46]

Can you provide something that referances the 9mm you refereanced to the equal in a .45 and how the .45 has more penitrating chance? It makes sense that it could be true, it just goes against what I have been told by other sources, and then the common misconception of stopping vs. penetrating.

The FBI ballisitics protocols: http://www.greent.com/40Page/general/fbitest.htm

The expansion properties of .45 JHP rounds (or lack thereof) was discussed in this month's issue of Combat Handguns. Other than the Barnes X-bullet (loaded by CorBon only unless you reload) the basic concensus is that the normal .45 JHP simply doesn't move fast enough to reliably expand, that this is made worse by using a short barrel handgun, but that the round itself is large enough that it doesn't need to expand much. There is a reason that John Browning made the 1911 with a 5" barrel.

There was an article a few months ago in Handgunner (gun mags are about the only reading material that I can get over here) talking about the history of the bad rep that the 9mm has for being a manstopper and how that was all based on a single recent incident (where you could see through the assailant he had been shot so many times, ie a shotgun blast wouldn't have stopped him either) and the ineffectiveness of the 9mm FMJ (terrible about through-and-through wounds but no worse than .45 FMJ) and older ammo designs. The bottom line of that article was that with modern ammo the 9mm has a street record about 1% lower (most effective load to most effective load) than the .45 ACP in achieving 1 shot stops. Both are in the mid 90% range.

[jonbearsmt 919]

i held a 9mm... its too G like for me,

im allso tryin to figure out texas laws... i have a mis charge from 6 years ago that may keep me from getting a consealed...

i have heard of another law that states that i can carry a gun in my car or truck... as long as when im pulled over i tell the officer about it right away,.,. but i cant find much about many of the gun laws

[zucc 0]

kimber

thats all i have to say even tho they are really expensive they are amazing hand guns they are the Ferrari's of hand guns

[topgun 262]

kimber

thats all i have to say even tho they are really expensive they are amazing hand guns they are the Ferrari's of hand guns

Thats a heck of a bold statement right there... They are pretty decent guns but they are no where close to the end all of guns.

[djjdnap 78]

i believe its legal to keep a shotgun in ur trunk and home without a license

and a hunting rifle...i think?

[mrray13 30]

kimber

thats all i have to say even tho they are really expensive they are amazing hand guns they are the Ferrari's of hand guns

Thats a heck of a bold statement right there... They are pretty decent guns but they are no where close to the end all of guns.

yep. while they are indeed nice guns, they have their issues. would i own another one? possibly, but there are many fine 1911s out there. some better, some worse.

i want to touch on something here for everyone too. helotaxi has brushed on it, but i want to emphasize it a bit. ammo is equally important in your choice of firearm. like he has mentioned, with bullet technology being where it is at today, a 9mm is just as potent as a .45. but regardless of what brand firearm you purchase, if you run crap ammo, you will have a crap result. and in a life or death situation, having ammo that isn't reliable isn't an option. grab a reliable firearm that fits your hand, in a caliber you can control (and enjoy to shoot) and load it with high quality ammo. you'll want to practice a bit with the good stuff as well. POI will change from brand to brand, weight to weight, and even within same brand. ball will shoot differently then HP then SJSP. make sure you are consistant with what you will be relying on in the event you need to use it.

and shoot, shoot, shoot!

wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[helotaxi 46]

Fan of the Kimbers myself. They're hard to beat for the money. Can you get a nicer 1911? Sure, but you're looking at a about 2x the coin for it. The likes of a Wilson Combat, Novak Custom, Dan Wesson or Les Baer is going to run you upward of 2 large. The difference is only in the accuracy department and the Kimbers are more than accurate enough as a defensive carry weapon. I also like tha fact that Kimber makes compact 1911s in 9mm.

The single stack STIs are really nice 1911s, as well, for a pretty good price. The double stacks cost a lot.

As far as pure reliability, Sig Sauer is really hard to beat. They even make a 1911 now.

[mrray13 30]

Fan of the Kimbers myself. They're hard to beat for the money. Can you get a nicer 1911? Sure, but you're looking at a about 2x the coin for it. The likes of a Wilson Combat, Novak Custom, Dan Wesson or Les Baer is going to run you upward of 2 large. The difference is only in the accuracy department and the Kimbers are more than accurate enough as a defensive carry weapon. I also like tha fact that Kimber makes compact 1911s in 9mm.

The single stack STIs are really nice 1911s, as well, for a pretty good price. The double stacks cost a lot.

As far as pure reliability, Sig Sauer is really hard to beat. They even make a 1911 now.

sorry, we'll defintiely have to disagree. tauras, s&w and springfield all make a very comperable 1911 at or less then a similiar kimber. and no less shootable, accurate or anything. kimber is a fine gun, but IMo, far better companies out there. the entry level guns from the other manufacturers are better, at a smaller price tag. you have to step up to kimber's higher line to find one worth having.

and yes, this comes from experience. and let's not get into their customer service. did you know your one year kimber warranty starts the date the dealer gets the weapon? not the date you purchase it. yeah. and that's straight from a CS represenative of kimber's when my custom II started to rust for no reason. and then, they were going to "discount" the refinishing to only $250 plus shipping both ways. on a firearm that was pampered, wiped down with a micro fiber cloth and a light coat rem oil everythime it was touched.

i've got to stop, lol.

wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[topgun 262]

Yep, not the first Kimber I've heard of with rusting problems.

[Penguin4x4 1,761]

I've always wanted to try a 10mm model myself, too bad they're so rare

[Penguin4x4 1,761]

Wouldn't mind squeezing off a round or two in .500 S&W Magnum or .50 BMG just for the hell of it either

[topgun 262]

Wouldn't mind squeezing off a round or two in .500 S&W Magnum or .50 BMG just for the hell of it either

I do believe you mean a .50AE, they don't make a handgun in .50BMG.

[Penguin4x4 1,761]

Wouldn't mind squeezing off a round or two in .500 S&W Magnum or .50 BMG just for the hell of it either

I do believe you mean a .50AE, they don't make a handgun in .50BMG.

No I meant the .50 BMG rifle round...I'm sure you could make a concealed carry carbine foldable stock .50 BMG gun

[Penguin4x4 1,761]

im not a gun kinda guy, but times are getting harder im starting to look like a turkey leg friend in the cartoons... you know when two cartoons are hungery and one looks over to the other and he looks like a honey ham.

I'd personally recommend something in .40 S&W. Lots of stopping power, and its a very popular caliber so bullets are pretty cheap, with a countless number of available models.

[Penguin4x4 1,761]

Wouldn't mind squeezing off a round or two in .500 S&W Magnum or .50 BMG just for the hell of it either

I do believe you mean a .50AE, they don't make a handgun in .50BMG.

No I meant the .50 BMG rifle round...I'm sure you could make a concealed carry carbine foldable stock .50 BMG gun

I'd love to see someone make a snub nosed .500 S&W magnum even more

[mrray13 30]

Wouldn't mind squeezing off a round or two in .500 S&W Magnum or .50 BMG just for the hell of it either

I do believe you mean a .50AE, they don't make a handgun in .50BMG.

No I meant the .50 BMG rifle round...I'm sure you could make a concealed carry carbine foldable stock .50 BMG gun

I'd love to see someone make a snub nosed .500 S&W magnum even more

umm, s&w makes a 3" version. can't get much more snubbie then that, and it was available almost from day one. the first 500 bought in the area was a snub. and it'll eat 1" plexiglass for dinner, lol.

10mm=.40s&w+p basiclly. and they aren't that rare. pricey, yes. rare, no. colt is even bringing their delta back, though i wouldn't want to pay for it.

wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[mrray13 30]

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/sto...amp;isFirearm=Y

sorry, it's a 2.75 inch version, lol. one can grab teh 460 in the same size as well.

http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/product_in...oducts_id=83208

http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/product_in...oducts_id=82996

two 10mm pistols that can be bought. s&w had the 1076, should be easy enough to find. ammo will be stupid hihg though.

wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[topgun 262]

I know of someone who uses a 1076 as a carry gun...

[helotaxi 46]

The Dan Wesson Razorback was resurrected in 10mm as well; Kimber makes one, too.

As far as the Kimber warranty thing, yep that's BS. That would explain why every dealer I've seen that carrys Kimber keeps one in stock (that's not for sale) and places the order for the customer's gun when the gun is purchased.

I've heard of problems with every brand of gun mentioned, FWIW. Have a big enough sample population and the problems will show up. Of course you rarely hear from the satisfied customers, it's the small percentage that have problem that tell the world. It's that way with everything.

Heard of lots of problems with a lot of the S&W handguns though I've heard also that they've fixed most of their QC issues. A compact M&P is on my short list of 9mm's.

Taurus has a bit of a reputation for inconsistency. A weapon from them is usually either superb or a total POS. I've been considering one of the 24/7 OSS 9s as well as one of their 1911s but I'll do more some more research to see what kind of problems have been cropping up especially since the PT 1911 is so new. I know that the first several batches of the OSS in .45 had some serious feed problems (magazine related). The nice thing about Taurus is that they will make it right, the bad thing is that it might take a LONG time.

I would say regardless, do some research on the gun forums. You do have to take a lot of what you read on there with a grain of salt because each of the boards has their sacred brand and their pariah brand just like the car audio forums.

Find the size a caliber weapon that you want and then start doing research. in all honesty, it's pretty hard to go genuinely wrong with any of the big name makers anymore.

After the purchase, if you're planning on carrying the gun wring it out pretty good. Run some good ammo through it to make sure that it will cycle reliably (at least 100 round preferably more). Then run some of the ammo you plan to carry through it to make sure that it shoots where you aim and cycles well. Disassemble and inspect the stressed parts several times during this process. This is where any casting/forging flaws will appear. The gun should still be under warranty at this point so take it back and let the maker make it right. Check all your mags for reliability as well; the gun may be perfect but insert a crappy mag and even the best guns become little more than expensive, short awkward clubs.

[Penguin4x4 1,761]

I should rephrase: 10MM is rare in my neck of the woods, IE bumfsck nowhere

Never saw the 500ES before, noice....

[mrray13 30]

The Dan Wesson Razorback was resurrected in 10mm as well; Kimber makes one, too.

As far as the Kimber warranty thing, yep that's BS. That would explain why every dealer I've seen that carrys Kimber keeps one in stock (that's not for sale) and places the order for the customer's gun when the gun is purchased.

I've heard of problems with every brand of gun mentioned, FWIW. Have a big enough sample population and the problems will show up. Of course you rarely hear from the satisfied customers, it's the small percentage that have problem that tell the world. It's that way with everything.

Heard of lots of problems with a lot of the S&W handguns though I've heard also that they've fixed most of their QC issues. A compact M&P is on my short list of 9mm's.

Taurus has a bit of a reputation for inconsistency. A weapon from them is usually either superb or a total POS. I've been considering one of the 24/7 OSS 9s as well as one of their 1911s but I'll do more some more research to see what kind of problems have been cropping up especially since the PT 1911 is so new. I know that the first several batches of the OSS in .45 had some serious feed problems (magazine related). The nice thing about Taurus is that they will make it right, the bad thing is that it might take a LONG time.

I would say regardless, do some research on the gun forums. You do have to take a lot of what you read on there with a grain of salt because each of the boards has their sacred brand and their pariah brand just like the car audio forums.

Find the size a caliber weapon that you want and then start doing research. in all honesty, it's pretty hard to go genuinely wrong with any of the big name makers anymore.

After the purchase, if you're planning on carrying the gun wring it out pretty good. Run some good ammo through it to make sure that it will cycle reliably (at least 100 round preferably more). Then run some of the ammo you plan to carry through it to make sure that it shoots where you aim and cycles well. Disassemble and inspect the stressed parts several times during this process. This is where any casting/forging flaws will appear. The gun should still be under warranty at this point so take it back and let the maker make it right. Check all your mags for reliability as well; the gun may be perfect but insert a crappy mag and even the best guns become little more than expensive, short awkward clubs.

excellent post.

have you considered the ruger sr9?(don't remeber if it's on your short list) i have yet to see one locally, though it's been grabbing a shit ton of great reviews. 17+1 in a package that isn't any wider then a single stack 1911. they seem to have hit a home run with this one. plus even i like the looks, unlike previous ruger polymers. i can't wait to get ahold of one, check out the erogonomics. if it's has good as the reviews say, and it fits the wife's hand, there will be a 9mm in the family.

otherwise, you've really hit the nail on the head.

penguin, 10mm pistols are hardly seen for a couple of reasons. cost of ammo, low production and people who own them are hoarding them. that drives up the value. you'll be hard pressed to find one for sale anywhere but the internet. are they worth the money? IMHO, no. again, they are nothing more then a slightly longer, slightly faster, but quite a bit more expensive .40s&w. one can simply load their .40 a little hot (there is on average a 100-150fps difference between the 10mm and .40s&w round, same bullet/weight) and you will effectively have a 10mm round. of course, you could opt for the .357 sig as well. a necked down .40s&w case, only slightly smaller projectile and 10mm speed. again, cost is higher, and you are right back to similiar performance of the 9mm. and the circle continues, lol.

wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[helotaxi 46]

The SR9 is not on the short list, actually. It's a gun that I'm buying. The short list is for another gun in addition to the SR9. Planning on buying several before the end of the year. The short list is currently for gun 2 (compact 9mm): Taurus 24/7, S&W M&P and Springfield xD compact. The short list for the 3rd gun (newer 1911): Taurus PT1911, STI Tactical and a couple of different Kimbers.

.357 SIG is a necked down .40 using a 9mm projectile. Ballistics are almost exactly like the .357 Mag. It had some real growing pains as well. The first company that made ammo for it almost killed the cartidge before it ever got off the ground. They had a serious problem with case ruptures and had to recall all the ammo on the market leaving a group of consumers with weapons and no ammo for them.