How does a sub play 10 hz when..

[audio-neon 34]

Low to many of us on this board isn't achievable (realistically) in an automobile, short of a full size bus.

I consider subsonic frequencies to be "low"

[sqguy 0]

These were car subs in a car, mass brand names not real expensive, only had 300rms on it. Infinity ref, sony P5, digital audio (audiobahn?), etc. on a nak crossover and ppi amp.

I'd hate to think I have been operating subs incorrectly for 20+ years. No doubt a very expensive sub can do better, but that is not what most people have thus my hypothesis that many people think 30 is low, indeed maybe the lowest. Better results could have been had with larger enclosures sure, but that minimum/recommened size is what they listed and I was at or over it. And you know as well as I that today it is all about the tiny box. Come on guys, you see this all the time in the forums:

"What is wrong with my sub it does not sound right?"

"What are your xover points?"

"80Hz"

"Turn it down to 50 and try it."

"I can't hear it if I turn it below 80."

I get as low as I can, but I don't lose any sleep over it just don't enjoy it as much if it can't thunder. I was spoiled by great IB setups in the 80s and so glad I have a car that will hold one again. Also there is no way I can run over 1cf box in this car without pulling it out all the time.

[///M5 2,833]

If a sub can't play below 30hz it IS operator error. Sure there is some serious junk out there and you have proven you like to buy it, but nonetheless your comment is absurd.

I LP mine at 40hz for god sakes.

[sqguy 0]

So anyone who follows the manufacturer's instructions/buys subs at a major electronics retailer is an idiot? I'm not going to argue it; I've used the stuff, heard it in people's vehicles, and that average stuff is what most people buy. You and your friends might have <30Hz and that is great, but most people don't and their stuff will not make it. We will have to disagree.

[audio-neon 34]

So anyone who follows the manufacturer's instructions/buys subs at a major electronics retailer is an idiot? I'm not going to argue it; I've used the stuff, heard it in people's vehicles, and that average stuff is what most people buy. You and your friends might have <30Hz and that is great, but most people don't and their stuff will not make it. We will have to disagree.

I'm almost positive that I could take almost any sub and get it to play sub 30 hz frequencies.

[Adrian_D 520]

So anyone who follows the manufacturer's instructions/buys subs at a major electronics retailer is an idiot?

After hearing what a pair of cheap Pioneers can do in decent box, I'm going to say manufacturer (talking about mainstream companies) recomandations are crap

[///M5 2,833]

So anyone who follows the manufacturer's instructions/buys subs at a major electronics retailer is an idiot? I'm not going to argue it; I've used the stuff, heard it in people's vehicles, and that average stuff is what most people buy. You and your friends might have <30Hz and that is great, but most people don't and their stuff will not make it. We will have to disagree.

I'm almost positive that I could take almost any sub and get it to play sub 30 hz frequencies.

Indeed, exactly my point. Operator error if you can't.

So anyone who follows the manufacturer's instructions/buys subs at a major electronics retailer is an idiot?

After hearing what a pair of cheap Pioneers can do in decent box, I'm going to say manufacturer (talking about mainstream companies) recomandations are crap

I never argued differently there, of course this is very dependent on the manufacturer.

sqguyib you have to separate the components from the installation. It is absurd to not. Installation is 90% of the game, if they won't play low it is the fault of the installer and no one else. IMO you can't even blame the manufacturer as they are marketing the same way their competition is, if the person installing is too much of an idiot to think for themselves and go about doing things the right way it is their fault and their fault alone. Your comment that "most people" don't have the capability of playing sub-30hz is also ridiculous because of the equipment is ludicrous. The major reason that most people do not have anything that plays the lows is that they run ported boxes and tune high. Why?? Because they want exaggerated bass and the peakiest response possible. For the rest of the world that runs sealed this isn't the case at all.

[sqguy 0]

My whole point was that people have high tuned boxes and consider 30hz low, not that subs would not do it. I said in the recommended box they would not do it. If people want them like that, use the instructions, buy a little manufactured box, or have no midbass and use the sub to cover...still 30 is low to them.

I used to run pyramid 10s at 30hz IB and ported, and they worked great for $15 each. Still considering trying the 15s. Some cheap subs work great until they wear out or blow, then you need a better sub for your use.

I agree recommendations are often marketing (I hate marketing and purposely don't buy products with bs marketing) but I was just playing around trying to make a small box work; giving them the benefit of the doubt. Since tons of subs supposedly work in small boxes I had to hit on one right...no. I don't like small sealed so have not used one in my car for a long time, and looks like nothing has changed. Still must need a special driver to get lows in a smaller sealed, guess I did not realize they were all making the same old stuff with larger surrounds and bigger plastic motor covers....thought maybe some new tech had trickled down from the best drivers and I was wrong. I ran them in winISD, they need more cf to be a sub. In my case the infinity seem to work well in 3+cf each.

[dave_Edwards 1]

"I used to run pyramid 10s at 30hz IB and ported"------------I am still trying to figure this statment out.....care to explain?

[mrray13 30]

"I used to run pyramid 10s at 30hz IB and ported"------------I am still trying to figure this statment out.....care to explain?

well, duh! he tuned his IB setup, with a port...

hehe, sorry, had too.

wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[dave_Edwards 1]

he must know more than anyone else here......lol

[mrray13 30]

lol, i'm laughing so hard i can't think of anything smartass to say....

damn you dave!!

wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[mrray13 30]

oh wait!!! I GOT IT!!!!!!

IB means.....

wait for it....

IN BOX

so that explains it! he ran his legacy 10's InBox, tuned to 30hz and ported.....

though i'm a bit confuzzled over tuned to 30hz AND ported....aren't they the same thing? WAIT! prs tuned to 30hz and then ported maybe??

maybe??

wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[mrbobian 0]

sqguyib, im going to have to agree with you in that most of the time is seems like all the kids' sub hardly reach 30hz. My friend has an audiobhan 15'' in a prefab sealed box and a decent kenwood amp. It is loud as fawk in the 50-60hz range but if he plays even a lower rap song like "White Girl" by young jeezey, it seems like the sub hardly lets you know the low note is there where my Fi Q10 with about the same amount of power in a .5 cf hits it just fine. So I don't know what he could have done differently to hit the 30ish range better?

///M5 would you please explain because I would really like to help him if I could. Thanks,

Mike B.

[dave_Edwards 1]

"prefab"=yuck...

[MikeS 0]

sqguyib, im going to have to agree with you in that most of the time is seems like all the kids' sub hardly reach 30hz. My friend has an audiobhan 15'' in a prefab sealed box and a decent kenwood amp. It is loud as fawk in the 50-60hz range but if he plays even a lower rap song like "White Girl" by young jeezey, it seems like the sub hardly lets you know the low note is there where my Fi Q10 with about the same amount of power in a .5 cf hits it just fine. So I don't know what he could have done differently to hit the 30ish range better?

///M5 would you please explain because I would really like to help him if I could. Thanks,

Mike B.

The audiobahn 15" may have a higher fs up around in that 50-60Hz area. I would guess a driver with a free air resonant frequency of 50Hz is going to be down by 6db at 30Hz......depends on the box and alignment I suppose.

With my experiences running swept sine waves with respect to port tuning woofers for home audio, is once you get below the fb the port is out phase with the cone like mentioned,(good post,BTW) and the cone starts a floppin'.

SPL is gone, because you are below fb, and well below the driver's fs.

Now with a cone going beyond it's excursion limits, I can't seem to relate SQ with that.

[dave_Edwards 1]

subwoofers play so very little of the audio spectrum that fighting over that small of a section is stupid. Plus---50-60Hz is alittle too high of a tuning OR a crossover point for me....I like low 40's to in the 30's for midbass to sub points.

[mrbobian 0]

Yes, but in order to do that you must have an actually midbass setup, haha. And I am talking about highschool kids. I probablly have the closest thing to a real front stage around here with only two polk coaxial speakers in my doors that are amped. Everyone around my town thought I was nutz for buying an amp for my door speakers... untill they heard them, but I still have nowhere near enough midbass. Someday I would like to do an actually SQ setup, but not as a highschool with no money.

With that being said, setting the crossover at ~60hz is neccesary for kids that don't have anything but a sub and stock or un-amped speakers. And when you only listen to rap, well, <30hz dosn't come around that much.

[sqguy 0]

IB = Infinite baffle, gosh everyone knows that....you so funny!

Pyramid made paper 10s in the late 80s to whenever. I ran two and then 4 IB and they worked great. They were very close in output to the pyledriver 10s, if someone remembers those they were killer. The pyle magnets hardly fit in the cutout. Then I got a hatchback and could not run IB, so I made a 4cf box that filled the whole hatch with four of the 10s, it sucked. Then I took a pair out and it was better, put a big port in the top and it was better yet and close to the four IB in other cars. They could play 30hz, not sure if they could get far under that but they would play 30hz music with some authority. I should dig out some 90s music and see how low it goes. Oh yeah, back then you had to read a book to port a sub, there was no software easily available and most subs had no T&S. So you did it my ear.

I don't know where you guys have been, but kids run the highs off HUs all the time and think that is normal. How much midbass can a HU make at 17wrms? About nobody runs under 100w in the 8" midbass thread here. I could not run a high side to my liking on anything less than a 75rms/ch@4ohm@12v amp. This 70rms/ch kicker does not get it, at 14+V I am sure. Kids all got spl boxes that can't get low and weak highs. Here I thought all these new common subs could get low in a little box and I tried, its all bs. I don't know how you guys can argue, you still need that same big box unless you get an expensive sub and usually run big power to force it to put out. If you don't have DSP or a parametric that huge roll off kills your tuning. I have always had larger issues with tuning in midbass and bass in doing this since the late 80s, I'm not sure where some of you guys have been. I can get a good pair of coax to play the highs reasonable, but if the sub does not blend you hear it right away....you change music and the bass gets loud/quiet, very common situation. I guess if you listen to one type of music and it works for that, then hey who cares but I listen to various things.

[mrray13 30]

IB = Infinite baffle, gosh everyone knows that....you so funny!

yes, we know that. BUT you stated, and i quote,

I used to run pyramid 10s at 30hz IB and ported

our question is how in the hell did you run those subs BOTH IB and ported? i don't believe anyone here, or anywhere for that matter, has heard of a ported IB setup. could you please educate us?

wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[///M5 2,833]

IB = Infinite baffle, gosh everyone knows that....you so funny!

Pyramid made paper 10s in the late 80s to whenever. I ran two and then 4 IB and they worked great. They were very close in output to the pyledriver 10s, if someone remembers those they were killer. The pyle magnets hardly fit in the cutout. Then I got a hatchback and could not run IB, so I made a 4cf box that filled the whole hatch with four of the 10s, it sucked. Then I took a pair out and it was better, put a big port in the top and it was better yet and close to the four IB in other cars. They could play 30hz, not sure if they could get far under that but they would play 30hz music with some authority. I should dig out some 90s music and see how low it goes. Oh yeah, back then you had to read a book to port a sub, there was no software easily available and most subs had no T&S. So you did it my ear.

I don't know where you guys have been, but kids run the highs off HUs all the time and think that is normal. How much midbass can a HU make at 17wrms? About nobody runs under 100w in the 8" midbass thread here. I could not run a high side to my liking on anything less than a 75rms/ch@4ohm@12v amp. This 70rms/ch kicker does not get it, at 14+V I am sure. Kids all got spl boxes that can't get low and weak highs. Here I thought all these new common subs could get low in a little box and I tried, its all bs. I don't know how you guys can argue, you still need that same big box unless you get an expensive sub and usually run big power to force it to put out. If you don't have DSP or a parametric that huge roll off kills your tuning. I have always had larger issues with tuning in midbass and bass in doing this since the late 80s, I'm not sure where some of you guys have been. I can get a good pair of coax to play the highs reasonable, but if the sub does not blend you hear it right away....you change music and the bass gets loud/quiet, very common situation. I guess if you listen to one type of music and it works for that, then hey who cares but I listen to various things.

Are you for real or just trying to be stupid? Considering I truly think its the latter you can stop now.

Just so others don't read your post and think you know something and try to follow suite I will clarify.

Your logic in going 4 10's in 4cf sealed to 2 10's in 4cf sealed to 2 in 4cf ported is non-existent. Build a damn box that works for your drivers not some arbitrary thing because you can.

Digging out 90's music isn't going to help you determine how low drivers play, not really the right time period for that. Albeit of course there are some genre's that will of course have lows recorded in the 90's but when you say 90's you imply popular music and that definitely was not a time for that. Plus if you want to see how low something can play perhaps a sine tone would be a good place to start.

Software for building boxes is a joke if you ask me, I do them by hand like I did in the late 80's. Hey imagine that the equations are STILL the same.

When I was a kid, I didn't run my highs off a headunit. There are a lot musically educated ones that don't

Perhaps you should tell us how you would be happy with 100w on your fronts but 70w isn't enough....oh, excuse me you said you'd be fine off 75w. So you are implying you can hear the difference between a 70w amp and a 75w?? ROFL.

Stop talking about kids and talk about enthusiasts. They wouldn't be on a car audio forum if they weren't.

Tons of subs can play low in a little box. You just have the tendency to buy shit and then wonder why it doesn't work. I am not surprised that stuff you buy at Walmart won't do what is advertised, but don't assume that the rest of the car audio world follows their spec-man-ship in defining what their drivers will do.

There are SO many things I want to say about your state that you can get a "good pair of coax to play the highs reasonable" but I won't other than to frown :(

[mrray13 30]

ok sean, you want to tell us how you really feel?

lol...damn.

wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[audio-neon 34]

I'm gonna try and decipher this politely:

I don't know where you guys have been, but kids run the highs off HUs all the time and think that is normal.

While this is true, there are speakers built for this. High efficiency speakers that have less excursion and therefore less "lower mid-bass".

How much midbass can a HU make at 17wrms? About nobody runs under 100w in the 8" midbass thread here. I could not run a high side to my liking on anything less than a 75rms/ch@4ohm@12v amp. This 70rms/ch kicker does not get it, at 14+V I am sure.

As Sean stated. You would not notice the difference. Our hearing is logrithmic, you need to increase the power by a factor of 10 to double loudness. Let's be nice and say the kicker amp does 65 watts rms @ 4 ohms at 12.7v. and the other amp does 80 watts rms @ 4 ohms and 12.7 volts. The difference of 15 watts is ~1/5th more power. Or 20%. You would need a 1000% increase to double volume. So realistically speaking the volume increase would be around a 10th of a dB. In a car environment a normal listener won't be able to notice a change unless it is around 2dB's louder due to floor noise. It's just how our ears work.

People who are running dedicated mid-bass's are less concerned with amp rms, than their amps headroom. Just because they are running 100+ watts a midbass doesn't mean they are using all of it. And the extra power is often necessary to compensate for the lower efficiency of the mid-bass to the midrange and tweeter.

Kids all got spl boxes that can't get low and weak highs.

True, it's the norm for people to port in the low 30hz frequency. Cabin gain in a car environment also helps. I don't see kids running around with 60hz tuned boxes everyday though.

Here I thought all these new common subs could get low in a little box and I tried, its all bs. I don't know how you guys can argue, you still need that same big box unless you get an expensive sub and usually run big power to force it to put out.

Not all subs are created equal. T/S parameters help determine what enclosure best suits a woofer. Some sub woofers will be inherently able to play lower. Starving a sub of a reasonable box volume is operator error. You can't take a 12" woofer and toss it in a 1cu foot box and expect stellar lows from it. Take the same woofer and give it a very reasonable 2cu foot box and low end difference will be night and day. Box design also comes into play. A ported box should reinforce the bottom end. A sealed box is naturally going to limit a drivers excursion. A small sealed box will often times have more trouble reaching low than a small lower tuned ported box just because the system is less efficient.

If you don't have DSP or a parametric that huge roll off kills your tuning. I have always had larger issues with tuning in midbass and bass in doing this since the late 80s, I'm not sure where some of you guys have been. I can get a good pair of coax to play the highs reasonable, but if the sub does not blend you hear it right away....

Lower frequencies are often given more attention in the audio world. It's once again operator error. If your front sound-stage is good, than your sub-stage should be easy to blend. I have always found tweeter blending to be the hardest because of how efficient the tweeters are.

you change music and the bass gets loud/quiet, very common situation. I guess if you listen to one type of music and it works for that, then hey who cares but I listen to various things.

This has nothing to do with the type of music. It has to do with the levels at which the music was recorded. It doesn't matter how many thousands of dollars you have in your system. It can only reproduce what the source material contains. If your source is contaminated with bad levels, your reproduction will be too.

[bigtoepfer 0]

IB = Infinite baffle, gosh everyone knows that....you so funny!

yes, we know that. BUT you stated, and i quote,

I used to run pyramid 10s at 30hz IB and ported

our question is how in the hell did you run those subs BOTH IB and ported? i don't believe anyone here, or anywhere for that matter, has heard of a ported IB setup. could you please educate us?

wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

I think he was referring to the fact that he used those 10s in both an IB setup AND a ported setup. not necessarily at the same time. =D

[sqguy 0]

yes, we know that. BUT you stated, and i quote,

I used to run pyramid 10s at 30hz IB and ported

our question is how in the hell did you run those subs BOTH IB and ported? i don't believe anyone here, or anywhere for that matter, has heard of a ported IB setup. could you please educate us?

You guys sure make a mountain out of a mole hill. Just where did I say "both"? If you read my post I tell you IB and later ported, so what I changed cars. Point is I had strong output out of $15 subs either way...you guys had to say you could make any sub play 30hz and yeah I did it with $15 subs a long time ago. It was great fun, but they did wear out in about two summers so had to keep replacing them.

M5- Why a 4cf box? That was all the car could hold and so I tried 4 subs in it. I progressively tuned it lower until it worked the way I wanted. It was loud with 4 subs and just like today, it sounded like crap. Party music then was dance music, and it had plenty of bass as well as other music. I'm not going to argue taste, the chicks liked it and that was priority. True a lot of rock was poor in bass, but genesis/phil c was good for example.

Again if you read my post, I said 75w at 12v and so just how are new amps rated today? Yes, not at 12v. What is the kicker at 12v, 40w? I read that but can't verify it, but sounds likely. I'm not lying to you, it is weak in this setup for whatever reason maybe not the amp I am not yet sure. 4x70 sounds pretty weak for SQ anyway right?

You can make stuff up and poke fun at me all you want, I guess I did not realize by reading many posts here that 100% of the people here are learned enthusiasts. I still stand by my statement that many people think 30hz is low. When you talk to people with limited SQ experience you will run into it, in fact you hammer those spl people that say anything close to 'sq' all the time just like you are me here.

Sorry, the only thing in my car walmart ever sold was the amp wiring kit. Then again I would not want to offend the enthusiasts that brag about the $10 mids or tweeters in their active setup, as they must be idiots too. Price has little to do with how good your setup can sound, more money may make it easier and more durable no doubt about that. I'm sorry if boston and infinity and kicker are crap in your book but that is what I have at the moment. I don't really care what name is on them.

Audio-Neon- Yes, but how many people running HUs went out and bought high efficiency speakers? I say 1%. Sure it can be done, I'm saying people just run HU power and it causes system tuning issues with big subs...namely they cross the HU high because it has no power and then have a real big midbass hole, then run the sub higher, then lose 30hz because of the roll off.

The kicker I have is 70x4 CEA at 4 ohms, so what 14.4V? It is 85x4rms at 2 ohms but I run it at 4. Most old amps are rated at 12-12.5v, maybe the ones I used were underrated but they had more nut than this. The sub side is good. I'll let you know if I can get the car under the wrench and swap amps. You could be right in a way, because this kicker barely has more power than the 2x35 alpine 3518 I had at 2ohms on the same speakers before.

Yes, I learned about T/S a long time ago so I could make boxes for customers, that is still no excuse for manufacturers instructions or the fact that people run them that way for whatever reason. I hear them go by my house daily, boom boom boom and no rumble. How can music not have to do with how the sub sounds? One song hits at 40hz and plays loud and the next song hits at 30 and you can't hear the bass, happens every time if your sub rolls off. A small box sub with lots of roll off is very difficult to blend into any system without processing. Depending on your xover slope it usually is a one note wonder. Sure sources are different, and big subs tend to make them more different.

You guys are nitpicking some special situation or telling me how to correct it. I'm saying people do it daily and when they ask something here many of them will have this setup/issues. Most put the smallest box in they can.

I actually like it, because I could tell the song by the bass track from my cheap subs a mile away at night. I would hate it if some kid had that today near my house. Now I hear a 'boom boom' and he is gone. Or maybe people with low subs are nicer I don't know. None the less I am pretty sure all this posting was a total waste of my time.