subwoofer comparison

[nstaln 0]

Hello all. I wanted to start this thread out of pure curiosity. I have been in the audio industry as an enthusiest and a proffessional for about a decade. In that time I have played around with lots of different brands of subs. It seems in recent years manufacturers have been developing what they market as "superwoofers". The subs are getting huge and the prices sure have followed suit. In my quest for more knowledge I have found my way here to the SSA forum. It seems that there are a lot of not-so-mainstream subs that are quite popular. My first experience with a high-output sub that wasn't available in every stereo shop across the nation was an Audiomobile Mass2012. After being in an industry dominated by brand names I was amazed at the output and SQ capability of these subs. Researching the Mass driver led me to TC Sounds where I learned quite a bit more than what I thought I knew about subwoofers. It seems that there is a whole subculture (if I can use that phrase) based around a handfull of "underground" brand subs that seem to really be quality products. What I want to hear about from the masses here in the forum is...In your personal experience how do "mainstream" subs compare to "underground" subs? By mainstream I mean subs like JL W7, Alpine Type X, Rockford T1 and 2, Kicker Solo X and L7, Image Dynamics ID Max, MTX 8500 and 9500, Plok Audio SR...you get the picture. By underground I mean subs like TC sounds various drivers, SoundSplinter, SSA Icons, Fi subs, Adire Audio subs, RE Audio, AA subs, Elemental Designs 13AV2...and the likes. This isn't one of those "what should I use in me car" threads...so lets assume all subs with optimum power and enclosures. I just want to know how these big market big price subs comapre to products by companies that seem to focus on solid build and design rather than outrageous marketing schemes. Thanks folks.

[Mark LaFountain 1,054]

You deff. came to the right site for this type of info...hold tight, i'm sure you'll get some good reviews. To get you started, here's the review page from the SSA ICON line.

http://www.soundsolutionsaudio.com/product...on/reviews.html

[JimJ 11]

In your personal experience how do "mainstream" subs compare to "underground" subs?

Totally depends on the drivers...there are "mainstream" drivers I'd take over internet-based brands, and vice versa...

It'd help if you said what you're exactly looking for out of your setup, what you have for a front stage, what kind of music you listen to, etc.

[nstaln 0]

In your personal experience how do "mainstream" subs compare to "underground" subs?

Totally depends on the drivers...there are "mainstream" drivers I'd take over internet-based brands, and vice versa...

It'd help if you said what you're exactly looking for out of your setup, what you have for a front stage, what kind of music you listen to, etc.

This isn't one of those "what should I use in me car" threads...

I guess I would be looking for general sound quality and bulid quality. Overall design and output. I'm looking for opinions abouts various subwoofers not for any specific application.

I'm not looking for new products. I currently have a TC Sounds TC3K 15 and a Diamond Audio 6,4,tweet frontend, 2 Kenwood Excelon amps, Kenwood XXV headunit and music keg, and a pretty beefy electrical system.

Edited March 14, 2008 by nstaln

[Lord Baccus 1]

well i can say from personal experince that i was tired of having Generic Crapp Shuved on me everytime i go into an Audio store.

generic amps and subs leave alot to wanting...

and life is too short to have the same thing everyone else has

i have an Arsenal of subs i can experiment with

and the amps i use are Sundown Audio... Very soild

unlike there generic counterparts...

mine wont pop something on the board if i venture below 1ohm

1 sub @ 1ohm

2 subs

well you get the point...

Why be boring ?

i say "Stagnent water draws Masquito's"

Edited March 14, 2008 by Lord Baccus

[nstaln 0]

Why be boring ?

i say "Stagnent water draws Masquito's"

Amen brother!

[JimJ 11]

I guess I would be looking for general sound quality and bulid quality. Overall design and output. I'm looking for opinions abouts various subwoofers not for any specific application.

Without any qualifying elements like what you listen to, what you're expecting, etc...no real "comparisons" can be made, unless you're comparing T/S parameters, DUMAX and Klippel specs. Which are useful...but might be very hard to get for everything out there

[JimJ 11]

and life is too short to have the same thing everyone else has

Except when the same thing everyone has works

[///M5 2,833]

There are good and bad in both worlds, as Jim says you need to narrow down what you are comparing.

[nstaln 0]

I admit the question is quite vague. But intentionally so. I wanted a variety of responses. I quess I would like to hear from people who have experience with some of the top tier mainstream subs and with the top teir underground subs. people who have played with W7s and TC subs, Type Xs and Icons, etc. In the underground there seems to be a lot of attention to magnet/motor design and coil design. The mainstream subs don't seem to post any literature on such things. I am familier with T/S parameters and can draw conclusions that way...but it's always nice to here from people with actual experience with the drivers themselves. As an example...at one point I owned an Alpine Type R(the newer style) because the specs looked good for what I needed in a sub at the time. I was so completely dissapointed in the SQ of that sub that I sold it within two weeks. Obviously numbers and theoretical conclusions only go so far. Are the W7s really worth the $$? Does the Type X really have the SQ that Alpine boasts about? Is the Solo X living up to the hype? Does the MTX 9500 really stand up to the abuse they claim it does? How do these subs sound as far as SQ is concerned? What kinds of motors and coil configurations do they employ? Does anyone use underhung designs anymore? These are some of the things I would like to know. I could give a $hit less about reversable mounting rings, pretty cosmetics, terminal jumpers and snap-on grills. What about these mainstream subs make them "superwoofers"? I have read countless reviews on the underground subs from people who obviously know what they are talking about....it seems mostly "enlightened" audio-freaks go for the underground subs because they know the difference between hype and substance. That's why I have stuck with TC products...they are built well and perfom well...not marketed as super-duper-mega-bass....they just work and sound great. I suspect these are the same reasons people choose, SSAs, FIs, REs, etc.

Edited March 15, 2008 by nstaln

[///M5 2,833]

Why not ask what you specifically want to know instead of beating around the bush. There is no way to really give you what you want any other way.

[nstaln 0]

Why not ask what you specifically want to know instead of beating around the bush. There is no way to really give you what you want any other way.

The idea is to start discussion. Not really looking for too many specifics...just want to know opinions based of peoples' experiences. The only reviews I see about most mainstream subs are on online shopping sites and are always the same vague, general, uneducated, teeine-bop hype reviews..."this thing really pounds"..."this sub does 1000watts!"..."my new subs out hit my friends subs"...

...useless nonspecific jabber. I'm looking for reviews from people who actually know what they are listening for. And then compare that with experiences with less known but seemingly more capable woofers. I'm not asking what subs to buy for a certain setup...just trying to get beyond the hype...I thought this was the place to do that.

[JimJ 11]

The problem is, our experiences could take the next month to describe in detail

While we could give you very detailed reviews based on what we've heard, unless you're listening for the same kind of things it's kind of useless...

[///M5 2,833]

Plus why would you care about an SPL sub if you are building an SQ setup...quite the differences in uses for all drivers and subjective responses will be all over the board from a variety of different people with different tastes. No reason for a discussion, just ask what you want to know. You should realize this is the internet and without a real question, you will never get a real answer. The only difference here on SSA we won't pretend to give you a real answer for a fake question.

[mrray13 30]

The problem is, our experiences could take the next month to describe in detail

While we could give you very detailed reviews based on what we've heard, unless you're listening for the same kind of things it's kind of useless...

this is the problem. if you want detail, it could take a long while. i understand what you are getting at, adn wanting a discussion is a good thing, but you are talking about one very vast subject. and that is the biggest hurdle.

why not slim up your question a bit. maybe pick specific drivers, enclosures, music type or something. get what i'm saying? i'm sure you'll get the response you're looking for, but give us something to work with that isn't so grey.

wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[nstaln 0]

OK...I'll try a different approach. SQ subs. Type X eperiences, LMS style drivers, W6s, XBL^2 drivers, FI Qs, RE drivers....thoughts comparisons. How do the W7s stand up against other high output drivers like TC Sounds 3k, ID Max, FI BTLs, MTX 9500s in terms of output and clarity. Assume optimal power and enclosure. Does anyone employ underhung designs anymore. Are the Crystal comp drivers the same motor structure as the Audiomobile Mass drivers were? If so are the Crystal Comp Xs with the dual stack magnet the same as the upgraded underhung design used in the second version of the SVS Ultra? What are other major build houses for subs...I'm really only aware of TC Sounds. Is the Eclispe LMT drivers the same as the TC Sounds original LMS dual stack TC9 motor. What other subs in the mainstream are produced/supplied/designed by major build houses? A lot of the Elemental Desings subs seem to be similar to A lot of Image Dynamics subs...same suppliers? ID Max and 13AV2...same motor structure? Does anyone have experience with the new RE Audio XXX or MX drivers? Just a few questions...I have a ton more but I seem to be annoying people. Just looking for general discussion.

[JimJ 11]

The problem is, your questions are very general and install specific

[nstaln 0]

The problem is, your questions are very general and install specific

I know! That's why I'm asking for peoples' experiences...they will ALL be different. That's the point. However some of my questions are quite specific. I'm not looking for majic answers or problem solvers...is this not a forum? Is this not a place for discussion?

[subwoofery 0]

PRICE my friend... Price is the only thing that can be compared.

Mainstream will almost always be a lot more expensive than let's say an internet based company (comparing of course 2 drivers in the same league). Stupid and pretty bald statement but true nonetheless.

[mrray13 30]

price isn't a stupid answer, it's teh most basic one. however, at times that price is somewaht justified, ie; the original r&d in the w7. but as other companies catch up, those mainstreme companies just continue to bank on their name, instead of the product. whereas the internet, underground as the OP put it, brands have to bank on product moreso then name. if a bad product goes out, all hell breaks loose. refer back to early eDuh.

IIRC, teh Mags were/are underhung. as are the rl-ps and several other drivers out there. true split-gap, lms and xbl^2 gets al teh big headlines or supersub status. but that's due to their abilities to be very linear at higher xmax. so you get flatter response, per enclosure design, at higher output capabilities.

but we are in car. very few go for flat, most want boom. and will give up linear response for sheer output. and box design is so important that drivers are all but interchangable. IMHO anyway. that said, it's nice to not run some mainstreme stuff, even though as jim put it earlier, there is some manistreme i would run before net brands and vice versa.

and let's not forget competition specific brands, like cactus sounds. going after titles held by kicker, pioneer and DD. building awesome products, albeit for mostly a single purpose.

wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[///M5 2,833]

If you want any real answers, you have to ask specific questions.

[Lord Baccus 1]

The problem is, your questions are very general and install specific

I know! That's why I'm asking for peoples' experiences...they will ALL be different. That's the point. However some of my questions are quite specific. I'm not looking for majic answers or problem solvers...is this not a forum? Is this not a place for discussion?

ill try and answer you..

i think i got your question figured out ?!?

i think if you buy Jl Audio it is a statis symbol = Tommy Hillfigure

i have yet to hear a JL W7 preform !!! they sound like a wet fart to me compaired to a Soundstream T4

accually now that i think about it i think every Jl sub i ever lisend to sounded Blowen !

the L7 from Kicker is a Monster @ SPL but lacks the musical feness... it fumbles notes when playing music

but people that buy this sub just want to hear there trunk buzzzzzzzz with the bass

nothing wrong with that...

as for RE i have the SX 15" in my truck as i type breaking it in & i think the SAZ3000d is going to Cook it ! i have BBQ sause ready ( Recone Kit - Pap Wmd2 )

as for Sub-culture subs Pap is my drug of choise, as they will build subs to what i request,

i.e. extra spiders, coil configurations & size, tencel leads that will handel 4k, Motors, etc etc etc

i have a MOAB 15" that deals with 3k all day without getting warm @ 36Hz

where as i requested this sub special built for SPL WMD-Spl 15"

notice the honeycomb cone and smaller motor with the 4k tencel leads... its a dragster compaired to the heaver coned & motored Bass Beast...

the SoundStream T4 is an all out work Horse, it will pull double duty

its a Bastard to beat in the lanes and will do Music with no missing notes...

i will have to say that these are My Opinions, and based on the Boxs the subs were installed in and what i was trying to achive that week...

now for the Memphis M3MojoMaxx 15" quad coil

music it cannot do... but Spl it does with no problem

where as the SoundStream XxX 15" dominates everything iv ever owned Music or Spl this thing is designed to Get Down !

iv nicknamed it "Tyson" as its an Ear bitting Bastard...

feel free to ask me questions

as you can see i build a lot of boxxs

Edited March 15, 2008 by Lord Baccus

[nstaln 0]

price isn't a stupid answer, it's teh most basic one. however, at times that price is somewaht justified, ie; the original r&d in the w7. but as other companies catch up, those mainstreme companies just continue to bank on their name, instead of the product. whereas the internet, underground as the OP put it, brands have to bank on product moreso then name. if a bad product goes out, all hell breaks loose. refer back to early eDuh.

IIRC, teh Mags were/are underhung. as are the rl-ps and several other drivers out there. true split-gap, lms and xbl^2 gets al teh big headlines or supersub status. but that's due to their abilities to be very linear at higher xmax. so you get flatter response, per enclosure design, at higher output capabilities.

but we are in car. very few go for flat, most want boom. and will give up linear response for sheer output. and box design is so important that drivers are all but interchangable. IMHO anyway. that said, it's nice to not run some mainstreme stuff, even though as jim put it earlier, there is some manistreme i would run before net brands and vice versa.

and let's not forget competition specific brands, like cactus sounds. going after titles held by kicker, pioneer and DD. building awesome products, albeit for mostly a single purpose.

wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

The SoundSplinter RL-P is an underhung design? I did not know that. I always thought it was a traditional overhung TC9. I always wanted to do a SounSplinter RL-S infinite baffle install with a 15 or 2. I tried to convince my friend with a sedan to do it but he couldn't afford it...oh well...maybe when I get a second car.

[JimJ 11]

i have yet to hear a JL W7 preform !!! they sound like a wet fart to me compaired to a Soundstream T4

Have you heard a W6v2 in a sealed enclosure versus that T4?

[nstaln 0]

i have yet to hear a JL W7 preform !!! they sound like a wet fart to me compaired to a Soundstream T4

Have you heard a W6v2 in a sealed enclosure versus that T4?

I have read some really nice reviews of the W6s. They seem a bit pricey though. Are there other drivers out there that can compare to the W6 in terms of SQ without the hefty price tag? My old Audiomobile Mass2012 was the best sounding sub I personally have evr heard....well kinda...it seemed to have a lot of mechanical noise..but in a trunk it sounded outstanding in cabin.