JimJ and all others who may be interested

[filtor1 13]

I just wanted to have some general conversation concerning a project I have wanted to do. This will not happen till the wife graduates this summer, so it is just for conversation sake now. She is supportive as long as it can be funded.

I have this fetish for music. Music of all kinds. It can change my mood in an instant. I have always wanted to do something over the top. Something that is way more than I need. With that though I give you a solution. I found this searching though PE's DIY projects. I have always wanted to do a nice line array. I have also thought about adding subs to them to fill the bottom end. This is a possible sollution.

The Collosi; http://www.partsexpress.com/projectshowcas...project=Colossi

I don't have to stick to this exact design nor the selected drivers. If the selected drivers are the way to go, then so be it. this is their part list;

Part # Description Qty

245-868 ART Cleanbox unbalance/balanced converter 1

2248-657 Behringer FBQ2496 Feedback Destroyer Pro 1

248-668 Behringer CX3400 3-way stereo crossover 1

264-702 Bohlender Graebener RD50 transducer 2

295-362 Dayton RS150S-8 6" woofer 16

295-462 Dayton RSS265HO-4 10" subwoofer 4

The text on that page says they chose these drivers due to their overlap in frequency extension to all for greater range of equalization and I assume blending. The overall construction doesn't seem to difficult. I have access to a table saw and other general tools. I can borrow a router if it is required. Oh, and I have help.

Here is a list of what I currently own;

HT duty:

Yamaha RXV 2400

Yamaha DV-C6480

5- Boston CR-85's (fronts, center, rears) The receiver is capable of 7channels but the room prohibits this.

1- Dayton Titanic 15" subwoofer with PE 1000 watt plate amp

Office:

Sony GS57ES this was given to me and still has issues, it works so I use it in the office for stereo duty

Kenwood 5-disk 1-bit CD player. This was bought in the early 90's. It also sucks, it works so...

2- Cerwin Vega VS-120's I am very suprised how well these have held up. They were perchased new in 1992.

My goal here is to use the new speakers, from this project, to use as a stereo platform in the living room. I want something that is visually and audibly impressive and sound good enough to use as full time stereo speakers. My HT isn't bad at all, just lacks in real output when I want to jam.

What do you think about the design? Do the drivers actually make sense? I would like this to be an open ended discussion. Feel free to contribute.

Chris

Updates will be posted in this thread as I make decisions about equipment:

Amplification: I am going to go with the 2- Rotel RB 1072's and 2- Rotel RB 1092's. These seem to be a great match for this project and have excelent reviews from other users. Pictures and specifications are in post #8.

Mids: I have chosen the new AA Carbon mids. I have been told they will outperform the Dayton's without question and will only be a few more $'s per driver. There are pictures of the older poly mids in post #16. I will get the pics of the new carbon mids as soon as they are available

Subs: I have done away with the additional effort in construction and wiring options and chosen 2- single 15" AA Havoc's. I think this will mimic the output with "hopefully" better range. I know this will be enclosure/driver/and room dependent though. I have high expectations for this choice as well.

I realize now that I am in no way limited to this design. I liked the approach and execution, but have decided to take some advice given here and from other freinds to vary things up a bit. Unfortunately the prices have all been raised as well. I am not 100% sure I want to spend $3K+ on a set of speakers before the build. Depends on the finances I suppose.

Edited February 4, 2008 by Chris

[JimJ 11]

I'm not really a fan of the Behringer processor/crossover they're recommending, but that's what they stock, so that's what they're going to recommend. I'd rather use something like a Rane or dbx if I was doing it.

One of those receivers could be used as a preamp if it has a line-level full range output...you'll need power amplifiers to run active, Rotel, Parasound, Acurus, Marantz, Adcom, even pro audio gear like Crown or QSC would work for that...you're looking at six channels, ideally. Two for the planars, two for the midbasses, and two for the subs.

I don't think that design needs additional subbass, but you could always go IB if you want to stick with the over-the-top theme

[UndercoverPunk 0]

I wish they had their projects on site for audition.... that would be a sweet afternoon.

[filtor1 13]

I'm not really a fan of the Behringer processor/crossover they're recommending, but that's what they stock, so that's what they're going to recommend. I'd rather use something like a Rane or dbx if I was doing it.

One of those receivers could be used as a preamp if it has a line-level full range output...you'll need power amplifiers to run active, Rotel, Parasound, Acurus, Marantz, Adcom, even pro audio gear like Crown or QSC would work for that...you're looking at six channels, ideally. Two for the planars, two for the midbasses, and two for the subs.

I don't think that design needs additional subbass, but you could always go IB if you want to stick with the over-the-top theme

I know you know the answer so I will just ask. What advantages do the Rane or DBX products offer. I am definitely not set on equipment selection, so this could definitely add some much needed demension to the project.

I will do some additional research on the brands you provided as well as some price comparisons and post up what I find. It will be basic internet research but sometimes that is very helpful.

Man I wish the house we are in had an appropriate spot for IB. Open floor plan with compound angles on the roof and limited space above would make that rather difficult to approach. My next house, I hope, will be built and designed with a listening room and HT room so I can pursue cool projects like these.

As always, Thank you for your input. I think this project would never get off the ground without help from people like yourself.

Chris

[JimJ 11]

What advantages do the Rane or DBX products offer.

Better build quality, in my opinion as well as others

[filtor1 13]

I wish they had their projects on site for audition.... that would be a sweet afternoon.

I totally agree. I have had some difficulty tracking down good array projects. Most people do full theaters where they chose different types of designs or they do big subwoofer projects. Both are great fun to examine, but lack of a dedicated room limits my projects for now.

If you guys have some projects you think I would benefit from, please post the links.

Back to some more general issues...

Another thing I am very curious about is how the enclosure effects the Fs of a driver. In the link he mentioned the enclosure changing the FS of the drivers. I really would like to have a grasp of these concepts before the build.

I am also not limited on the width of the enclosure as the builder in this case was. will the width of the baffle effect the dispersion?

The reasoning behind the increased size of the woofers was a possible lack of bass due to the sheer volume of other drivers. If you don't think this will be an issue with the design, I will stick with the 4-10's. I am definitely interested in staying with the sealed alignment though. I have had great success with the sealed projects I have been involved with that weren't output related, personal preference I suppose.

[filtor1 13]

What advantages do the Rane or DBX products offer.

Better build quality, in my opinion as well as others

Fair enough. I will rely on your experience.

I am not confident about either of my receivers having a full range output. This may be time for me to invest in one that does. I will have to check the manual and do some investigation.

[filtor1 13]

I am going to add to this post as I find some possibilities.

Rotel: RMB-1076 (No pricing yet)

Edited February 3, 2008 by Chris

[JimJ 11]

I really want to see pictures of this going together

[filtor1 13]

Next up is Parasound. http://www.parasound.com I didn't really find anything I thought to be perfect for this project there. The best I could come up with is this:

2- Parasound A21's (No Pricing yet)

- 250 watts RMS x 2 @ 8 Ω

- 400 watts RMS x 2 @ 4 Ω

- 750 watts RMS x 1 @ 8 Ω(bridged mono)

- Circuitry designed by legendary John Curl

- THX Ultra 2 certified

or

2- Parasound A23's (No Pricing yet)

- 125 watts RMS x 2 @ 8 Ω

- 200 watts RMS x 2 @ 4 Ω

- 400 watts RMS x 1 @ 8 Ω(bridged mono)

- Circuitry designed by legendary John Curl

- THX Ultra 2 certified

looks like this thread might get long. I hope you don't mind me taking some bandwidth up.

Edited February 3, 2008 by Chris

[filtor1 13]

I really want to see pictures of this going together

As do I my friend. I am sure you will be very high on the list to get pics. I am going to post all of my research as it may be a guide to others thinking about a similar project.

[filtor1 13]

No real resutls for the Acurus brand. I will keep trying.

http://us.marantz.com/default.asp Marantz didn't seem to have anything that fit either. They had some smaller power amplifiers and lots of 7channel A/V receivers. Very sexy equipment.

Adcom, http://www.adcom.com

I found a possibility for the mids and highs:

Adcom GFA-5400 (No Pricing yet)

125watts per channel, 8 ohms

200watts per channel, 4 ohms

MOSFET output circuitry

Tremendous 1.7dB headroom

Unfortunately nothing substantial for the subs.

Edited February 3, 2008 by Chris

[JimJ 11]

If you're OK with used stuff, I would lurk on the solid state and multichannel amp sections of Audiogon...really good selection of stuff there, without quite the idiot factor of Ebay...

[filtor1 13]

www.crownaudio.com Looks like Crown has a ton of possible solutions as well. I will list a few.

4- Crown CDi 1000's; (No Prices yet)

2 ohm Dual (per channel) 700*watts

4 ohm Dual (per channel) 500watts

8 ohm Dual (per channel) 275watts

4 ohm Bridge-Mono 1400*watts

70V Dual (per channel) 500watts

140V Bridge-Mono 1000watts

With 0.5% THD

*With 1% THD

2- Crown CTs 600's and 2- Crown CTs 1200's (No Prices yet)

CTs 600:

2 ohm Dual (per channel) 150watts

4 ohm Dual (per channel) 300watts

8 ohm Dual (per channel) 300watts

4 ohm Bridge-Mono 300watts

8 ohm Bridge-Mono 600watts

CTs 1200: (No Prices yet)

2 ohm Dual (per channel) 250watts

4 ohm Dual (per channel) 600watts

8 ohm Dual (per channel) 600watts

4 ohm Bridge-Mono 500watts

8 ohm Bridge-Mono 1200watts

4-DSi 1000's (No Prices yet)

Stereo, 2 ohms (per ch.) 700*watts

Stereo, 4 ohms (per ch.) 475watts

Stereo, 8 ohms (per ch.) 275watts

Bridge-Mono, 4 ohms 1400*watts

Bridge-Mono, 8 ohms 950watts

2- XLS 202's and 2- XLS 602's (No Prices yet)

XLS 202:

1 kHz with 0.5% THD

Stereo, 4 ohms (per ch.) 300watts

Stereo, 8 ohms (per ch.) 200watts

Bridge-Mono, 8 ohms 600watts

XLS 602: (No Prices yet)

1 kHz with 0.5% THD

Stereo, 4 ohms (per ch.) 600watts

Stereo, 8 ohms (per ch.) 380watts

Bridge-Mono, 8 ohms 1200watts

Man they have a seemingly endless suply of options. There were a ton more but were either way too much power for my application or pecifically designed for PA applications.

I can already tell this project is going to take some involved desicion making. It appears that Rotel and Crown are the two I would narrow it down too. Mainly due to options and performance specific to my project. I will be putting up some options for drivers soon. As always, suggestions are very welcome.

Edited February 3, 2008 by Chris

[filtor1 13]

If you're OK with used stuff, I would lurk on the solid state and multichannel amp sections of Audiogon...really good selection of stuff there, without quite the idiot factor of Ebay...

I have had both very bad and very good experiences with Ebay. I haven't honestly decided if used is a good route. I know I can save myself a ton of money, but product support in the event of a problem would end up pissing me off. It would have to be exactly what I need and a rediculous price difference really. I will definitely cruise over there and check out what they have to offer. Thanks for the direction.

[filtor1 13]

I am looking for the mids right now. Here a few of the drivers I am looking at.

Dayton RS150S-8 6" Reference Shielded Woofer 8 Ohm ($30.61ea.)

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.c...tnumber=295-362

Specifications: *Power handling: 40 watts RMS/65 watts max *VCdia: 1" *Le: .70 mH *Znom: 8 ohms *Re: 6.2 ohms *Frequency range: 45-3,500 Hz *Fs: 48 Hz *SPL: 88.0 dB 2.83V/1m *Vas: .50 cu. ft. *Qms: 2.10 *Qes: .50 *Qts: .40 *Xmax: 4 mm *Dimensions: A: 5-15/16", B: 4-3/4", C: 3-1/4".

Long-excursion motor and suspension for strong bass performance

Subtle yet high-tech look makes a bold cosmetic statement

Ultra-low stray magnetic field allows extremely close proximity to CRT's

Designed and engineered in the U.S.A.

Vifa P17WJ-00 6-1/2" Woofer ($45.20ea)

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cf...tnumber=297-305

Specifications:* Power handling: 70 watts RMS/100 watts max * Voice coil diameter: 1-1/4" * Voice coil inductance: .55 mH * Nominal impedance: 8 ohms * DC resistance: 5.8 ohms * Frequency response: 37-5,000 Hz * Fs: 37 Hz * SPL: 88 dB 1W/1m * Vas: 1.23 cu. ft. * Qms: 1.55 * Qes: .45 * Qts: .35 * Xmax: 4.0mm * Net weight: 2-3/4 lbs. * Dimensions: Overall Diameter: 6-5/8", Cutout Diameter: 5-3/4", Mounting Depth: 3", Magnet Diameter: 3-9/16", Magnet Height: 1-1/8".

The Freq. Response for all of these is well within the range I am looking for, they actually go well under where they would be crossed at.

I am also considering the Acsendant Audio mids. Although the impedance will be different with these it might work out in my favor as all of the amps I selected put out more power at 4ohms. I will need to sit down and look at my options for wiring. I have never had to figure it out for more than 4 speakers. Any help in this area would be appeciated.

Any other driver combinations you would recommend?

Edit: I just saw that PE has on closeout a 6.5" mid. I know it is of lower quality than the others I posted but man, $15 each. Here they are. I don't actually plan on these being the drivers. Just posting them as the lowest price point.

Alesis 6-1/2" Shielded Carbon Fiber Cone Woofer ($15.00ea)

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cf...tnumber=299-164

Specifications: *Power handling: 75 watts RMS/150 watts max *VCdia: 1-1/2" *Le: .69 mH *Impedance: 8 ohms *Re: 5.9 ohms *Frequency range: 47-4,500 Hz *Fs: 47 Hz *SPL: 88 dB 1W/1m *Vas: .60 cu. ft. *Qms: 5.79 *Qes: .49 *Qts: .45 *Xmax: 5 mm *Dimensions: A: 6-1/2", B: 5-1/2", C: 4-1/4".

Ultra stiff carbon fiber cone

1-1/2" voice coil

Bucking magnet to provide shielding

Aluminum former

High power handling

Out of these I would narrow them down to the AA mids, Vifa mids and the Dayton mids. It is going to be difficult to choose.

Edit: I have eliminated the Vifa option and settled on either the Dayton or AA mid. It will come down to the final cost total of all 16 drivers. Both have the ability to fit this application as far as relative power handling and frequency responses.

Edited February 3, 2008 by Chris

[filtor1 13]

On to the subs. I wish that Ascendant offered the Arsenals in a D2 VC configuration. The Havocs are but they would require huge power and aren't available in 10"s.

Edit: To correct myself it looks like I can do series/parallel with 2 D4's and end up with a 4ohm load. This will work with most of the apms I has chosen as well.

Ascendant Audio Arsenal ($165.00ea.)

DUAL 4 OHM COILS

R 3.35 Ohms per coil (6.7 Ohms measured in series)

Fs 33.8 Hz

Qms 4.68

Qes .43

Qts .39

Mms 123 g

Sd 310 cm^2

Vas 24.24 l

SPL 85.2 1W/1m

BL 20.2

Xmax 18mm

RMS 500W

http://www.soundsolutionsaudio.com/shop/in...p;productId=163

the only issue I see that may arise is the FS of 33.8.

Fi Q's however do come in D2's ($249.00ea)

Fs: 29.0 Hz | 26.2 Hz

Re: 0.70 Ohms/coil | 1.4 Ohms/coil

Qms: 4.80 | 5.10

Qes: .41 | .41

Qts: .38 | .38

Mms: 186g | 202g

Cms: 1.70mm/N | 1.70mm/N

Sd: 310cm^2 | 310cm^2

Vas: 22.3 l | 22.3 l

Spl: 82.9dB 1W/1m | 82.9dB 1W/1m

Bl: 10.4 N/A | 15.1 N/A

Xmax: 27mm

Rms: 1000W

Sealed box: .2-.6 cuft

Ported box: .5-1.2 cuft @ 28-33Hz

Sub OD: 11.000”

Cut ID: 9.250”

Mounting depth: 6.500”

Displacement: 0.12cuft

here they are in my trunk. The amps are different but the box is the same.

https://ssl.perfora.net/www.ficaraudio.com/...view.shopscript

I have been running a piar of the Q 12's in my car and have been very pleased. I didn't want to leave these out of the running. I do prefer an all black cone though. I don't think that would be an issue if I wanted them that way.

Dayton TIT280C-4 10" Titanic Mk III Subwoofer 4 Ohm ($139.88ea.)

Power handling: 400 watts RMS/565 watts max

Impedance: 4 ohms

Fs: 28 Hz

Xmax 18.7 mm

Sensitivity 87.7 dB 2.83V/1m

Vas: .95 cu. ft.

Qts: .39

My current HT runs the 15" version of this sub. It gets the job done. I have been very happy with it as far as extension and output in it's sealed enclosure. As I have used this type of sub I didn't want to rule it out.

I am going to add the sub they chose because it will fit the bill as well.

Dayton RSS265HO-4 10" Reference HO Subwoofer 4 Ohm ($119.80ea.)

Specifications: *Power handling: 600 watts RMS/1000 watts max *VCdia: 2-1/2" *Le: 1.75 mH *Impedance: 4 ohms *Re: 3.4 ohms *Frequency range: 24 - 600 Hz *Fs: 24 Hz *Magnet weight: 100 oz. *SPL: 87 dB 2.83 V/1m *Vas: 1.20 cu. ft. *Qms: 4.20 *Qes: .36 *Qts: .33 *Xmax: 12mm *Dimensions: A: 10-1/2", B: 9-1/4", C: 5".

Extensively vented motor eliminates compression and allows quiet excursion

Extra-thick black anodized aluminum cone for maximum rigidity

Triple shorting ring motor for ultra-low distortion

4-layer coil for high power handling

Optimized parameters for small enclosures

Highest quality materials throughout for long-lasting performance

I am going to end this post here as there are many possibilities for wiring and ohm load matching. So I will stick with those three for now. I am still very open to suggestions here as usual!

One more jab here. I have heard about and heard an SVS sub in a HT application. I was extremely impressed with its range. Do you guys know anything about their drivers?

Edited February 3, 2008 by Chris

[filtor1 13]

Last on the list is tweeters. I am used to what I have in my car and my Boston's in the living room. I have Rainbow Powerlines CS's (Cal 27's) with a bit over 400watts per door (mid and tweeter) in my car, only running fronts and whatever comes with the Boston's for the house. I know the Boston tweets are silk dome but have no further information on them. I really like the appearance of the ribbons but have found a very small selections on PE. I can only hope for the kind of detail I get in my car with the Cal27's. I am sure I will find something. please make some suggestions in this area. I will give up the look of the ribbons to get the sound I want.

[filtor1 13]

WOW! There is a ton of great stuff on Audiogon. I wish I could find a set of amps like I want to use. i am saving that into my favorites though. Great resource.

[JimJ 11]

WOW! There is a ton of great stuff on Audiogon. I wish I could find a set of amps like I want to use. i am saving that into my favorites though. Great resource.

You don't want to know how much I've spent there

Sometimes I've been able to meet up with the seller in person...which is always cool, and very safe from a shipping/payment perspective.

[filtor1 13]

WOW! There is a ton of great stuff on Audiogon. I wish I could find a set of amps like I want to use. i am saving that into my favorites though. Great resource.

You don't want to know how much I've spent there

Sometimes I've been able to meet up with the seller in person...which is always cool, and very safe from a shipping/payment perspective.

Indeed, i can imagine.

When you get a free few minutes, would you mind looking at my options and letting me know what you think.

[filtor1 13]

I will finish putting the pics up tomorrow.

[johnecon2001 82]

I would skip the Crown CTs line if I were you..

[filtor1 13]

I would skip the Crown CTs line if I were you..

Why is that?

[johnecon2001 82]

I've had direct experience with them. They don't do rated power and the transistors and capacitors in them have a nasty habit of burning up and sending square waves to your speakers.

We had 35 of them (3000's, 2000's, 1200's, 600's) in an installation that ultimately led us to replace the 16 blown HF drivers in our 16 Box EAW KF761 Line array.

We've moved on to better things.