Hi, I'm Blake from eCrack.net

[eCrack 0]

No graphical pc type program will do what we did with the great 12 challenge..

Where only 1 variable was changed at each interval

Welcome to the forum...

I saw the big 12 challenge but apparently I missed what I was looking for. I'll take another look. You did the testing I'm speaking of?

[eCrack 0]

What type of "testing" will you be doing, eCrack?

I would call you by your first name but you introduced your site...not yourself.

My name is Blake.

The testing I will be doing on amplifiers will do the standard power tests, and since it is impossible to compare sound quality, I will compare the input signal vs the output signal. In these ways the amplifier's efficiency, maximum power output, output before clipping, and accuracy of reproduction will be represented.

Subwoofers will be tested in much the same way.

Sorry, looks like you had your name in the title of the thread and I missed it completely.

Anyways, I guess I'll be the first to say welcome Blake!

If you don't mind my asking, what measurement software and setup will you be using for subwoofer (and presumably normal speaker?) testing?

I can't tell if you're quizzing me or if you want to steal my testing methodology At any rate, I'm not totally sure how you knew I'd be using a pc based solution. (of course I'd need something to create the graphical displays to represent the data) but I could have simply used analog signal generators and rta's.

Well a pc solution offers significant advantages in terms of quick FR, impulse, THD, CSD, and IMD measurements. I don't know why anyone would bother with anything other than PC software nowadays.

So what will you be using? Do you have an anechoic chamber? What measurement method will you be using for subwoofers?

I ask out of curiosity and maybe I can contribute, too.

Well I am working on the chamber atm. It has proven to be much more difficult than I had expected but I believe once I show it, others will have to help me work the kinks out but the basic idea will be copied.

(certainly this will be confusing, but I don't want to reveal it in case I totally fail. high hopes and low results are quite an embarassment.)

Measuring the sub output will prove extremely challenging. I haven't got to do it yet. A suggestion would be helpful. So far I am limited in the software-based rta's. The plan was to take a 5 second snapshot of an input signal, then have the rta capture that same 5 second period and compare the two. I am confident that any rta will be show a signal different than the input even if it were a perfect speaker BUT I believe that the differences in the responses once recorded will show the variations and be more than adequate. (Also, to be more technical, I mean the input into the sub and NOT the amp input.) I have high expectations, but without any vendor support it is difficult to iron all the bugs out.

[vladd 26]

First off someone has tested woofers in that manner before, most of the ppl here already know about it.

post the link

secondly, i'm sure they have more experience than you because of the way you talk. Nothing personal but you haven't stated a single thing so far that would make me want to read a review by you. yes different woofers have different displacements, anyone should know that. Different woofers also behave differently in different enclosures so it's not very fair to test them all in the same one. yes you eliminate your one variable but since the t/s parameters are all different that's a bunch of variables that aren't eliminated.

How can I prove myself when you don't give me a chance? This is an introduction... not a review. Also, you ignorantly ignored that I am not merely going to test 2 woofers in one box. Each woofer would go in a range of different boxes. Had you visited the site, you would see the subwoofer testing methodology. Unfortunately for you, you want to remain ignorant and very rude for no apparent reason.

Last, seriously telling me to stop before I look worse? High and mighty won't fly here either, you come to a place that you think is filled with people that need your new ideas of testing when it's all been done before. I assure you i don't look bad at all, though i could use a shower after hitting the gym. I am quite flattered that you're concerned for my online persona though.

Really? THen how are you still here? All you have been doing is acting high and might... like you are the gatekeeper or something. So far you just sound like an angry wannabe. Also, I'm not a bit concerned about your online personna. You're just another fanboy of the "leet" guys out there. I've seen a million just like you.

you've posted how many times and not given us one good reason to respect you? list of accomplishments, anything?

[eCrack 0]

First off someone has tested woofers in that manner before, most of the ppl here already know about it.

post the link

secondly, i'm sure they have more experience than you because of the way you talk. Nothing personal but you haven't stated a single thing so far that would make me want to read a review by you. yes different woofers have different displacements, anyone should know that. Different woofers also behave differently in different enclosures so it's not very fair to test them all in the same one. yes you eliminate your one variable but since the t/s parameters are all different that's a bunch of variables that aren't eliminated.

How can I prove myself when you don't give me a chance? This is an introduction... not a review. Also, you ignorantly ignored that I am not merely going to test 2 woofers in one box. Each woofer would go in a range of different boxes. Had you visited the site, you would see the subwoofer testing methodology. Unfortunately for you, you want to remain ignorant and very rude for no apparent reason.

Last, seriously telling me to stop before I look worse? High and mighty won't fly here either, you come to a place that you think is filled with people that need your new ideas of testing when it's all been done before. I assure you i don't look bad at all, though i could use a shower after hitting the gym. I am quite flattered that you're concerned for my online persona though.

Really? THen how are you still here? All you have been doing is acting high and might... like you are the gatekeeper or something. So far you just sound like an angry wannabe. Also, I'm not a bit concerned about your online personna. You're just another fanboy of the "leet" guys out there. I've seen a million just like you.

you've posted how many times and not given us one good reason to respect you? list of accomplishments, anything?

Edited January 31, 2008 by eCrack

[NDMstang65 403]

No graphical pc type program will do what we did with the great 12 challenge..

Where only 1 variable was changed at each interval

Welcome to the forum...

I saw the big 12 challenge but apparently I missed what I was looking for. I'll take another look. You did the testing I'm speaking of?

What i think you are looking for is something that really does not matter, with the 12 challenge we reproduced a daily driving type scenario..with generalized boxes, and generalized installs with response curves of this woofer does this given scenario A, B, and C.

At the end of the day a speaker is to reproduce music, all the numbers and hooplah matters none...

Beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.

[DevilDriver 28]

Blake, drop me an email at neil (at) audiojunkies.com with what you have and what you're wanting to do and I'll help if I can.

[eCrack 0]

No graphical pc type program will do what we did with the great 12 challenge..

Where only 1 variable was changed at each interval

Welcome to the forum...

I saw the big 12 challenge but apparently I missed what I was looking for. I'll take another look. You did the testing I'm speaking of?

What i think you are looking for is something that really does not matter, with the 12 challenge we reproduced a daily driving type scenario..with generalized boxes, and generalized installs with response curves of this woofer does this given scenario A, B, and C.

At the end of the day a speaker is to reproduce music, all the numbers and hooplah matters none...

Beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.

Beauty IS in the eye of the beholder but the numbers DO matter. How else can we give someone any idea of how something might sound via text? Sure some people like high distortion, but the numbers will show them which speakers to go for if they want that I guess we agree to disagree.

Edited January 31, 2008 by eCrack

[eCrack 0]

Blake, drop me an email at neil (at) audiojunkies.com with what you have and what you're wanting to do and I'll help if I can.

I really appreciate that and I will. Thank you Neil.

[NDMstang65 403]

No graphical pc type program will do what we did with the great 12 challenge..

Where only 1 variable was changed at each interval

Welcome to the forum...

I saw the big 12 challenge but apparently I missed what I was looking for. I'll take another look. You did the testing I'm speaking of?

What i think you are looking for is something that really does not matter, with the 12 challenge we reproduced a daily driving type scenario..with generalized boxes, and generalized installs with response curves of this woofer does this given scenario A, B, and C.

At the end of the day a speaker is to reproduce music, all the numbers and hooplah matters none...

Beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.

Beauty IS in the eye of the beholder but the numbers DO matter. How else can we give someone any idea of how something might sound via text? Sure some people like high distortion, but the numbers will show them which speakers to go for if they want that I guess we agree to disagree.

You can argue numbers until your blue in the face. At the end of the day it's all personal taste. If subject A thinks that 2% THD sounds better to him/her then that is the end of the arguement. You can argue that subwoofer from company X will sound leaps and bounds better because your graphical data indicated less that .000000001% THD through the full sound spectrum...

He'll buy the sub, say your an idiot, and we're back to square one.

[DevilDriver 28]

That's why we need to identify any discrepancies that exist, not give up on it all together and just let all things go unaccounted for. And the commitment to this that has been started by industry leaders like Drs. Toole, Geddes, Lee, etc. needs to be continued, not forgotten.

THD itself is a relatively pointless metric but there are improvements made every year.

[eCrack 0]

No graphical pc type program will do what we did with the great 12 challenge..

Where only 1 variable was changed at each interval

Welcome to the forum...

I saw the big 12 challenge but apparently I missed what I was looking for. I'll take another look. You did the testing I'm speaking of?

What i think you are looking for is something that really does not matter, with the 12 challenge we reproduced a daily driving type scenario..with generalized boxes, and generalized installs with response curves of this woofer does this given scenario A, B, and C.

At the end of the day a speaker is to reproduce music, all the numbers and hooplah matters none...

Beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.

Beauty IS in the eye of the beholder but the numbers DO matter. How else can we give someone any idea of how something might sound via text? Sure some people like high distortion, but the numbers will show them which speakers to go for if they want that I guess we agree to disagree.

You can argue numbers until your blue in the face. At the end of the day it's all personal taste. If subject A thinks that 2% THD sounds better to him/her then that is the end of the arguement. You can argue that subwoofer from company X will sound leaps and bounds better because your graphical data indicated less that .000000001% THD through the full sound spectrum...

He'll buy the sub, say your an idiot, and we're back to square one.

I agree and I wouldn't argue that with him at all, but the goal is so that people can gauge a speaker they have heard with those that they have not. In this way if they prefer 2% THD he can find other subs with similar distortion. I agree it is about personal taste, but to those that will be able to read graphs and know what THD is, it will be helpful.

Edited January 31, 2008 by eCrack

[NDMstang65 403]

Just an example Neil.

Why do you think so many people buy XBL^2 based drivers and sell them because they don't get 'loud' or sound 'lifeless'?

Many many many many people do not like a flat response curve type woofer/driver...live music has peaks and valley's in it, it's easy to make a speaker to play flat and have all the great numbers, but when it really gets down to it and you finally listen to music on it...it quite frankly sounds horrid..

Numbers are great, i love talking numbers and technology...

At the end of the day you have to step back and examine how much of this theory, numbers, etc relates to a real world musical experience...it does relate to an extent, but there is a lot of it that is merely a waste of time..unless everybody who were to buy speakers and audio and enjoy music knew everything and all theories that went behind it...

It's the simple fact that the end consumer for the most part knows nothing of anything that you speak of. You say its going to sound better because it has less distortion...they don't know what that is, so how are they going to relate?

[DevilDriver 28]

Because XBL^2 drivers aren't flat in a vehicle and our hearing mechanisms are too complex for people to understand what they are hearing and remedy it.

Where I think we agree is that for 99% of all consumers, all the theory and practice doesn't matter worth a damn. But that doesn't mean it's unimportant. Most consumers don't care how a collective vehicle works but it is still important to strive for better performance through research and development. The type of testing done on sites like DIYMA or Zaph (and eCrack?) are very good for those who understand it, although I do have concerns that misinformed conclusions are drawn and espoused on other forums too often.

[NDMstang65 403]

Like i said all of the theory is great, as is the technical data...

We created a real world scenario with the 12 challenge and so many people called bullshit that it's honestly turned me bitter towards the subject. It's just entirely too hard to do what needs to be done to the T to definitively say this is what this is, end of story...myth busted .

I'll just live for the music...because thats what it's all about

[DevilDriver 28]

I don't get the term "real world". It implies there is something "not real" about something done with a variety of controls.

Does a speaker behave differently in a vehicle or does one vehicle behave differently than another?

[NDMstang65 403]

I don't get the term "real world". It implies there is something "not real" about something done with a variety of controls.

Does a speaker behave differently in a vehicle or does one vehicle behave differently than another?

Build an anechoic chamber, make a driver play completely flat in there, should sound 'perfect' correct? Because 'flat' response is what we are going for in a SQ car right?

Slap it in a car and play The Eagles - When hell freezes over album...tell me what you hear. Is it enjoyable? Or is it dead and lifeless?

EVERYTHING behaves differently, that's why i am saying there is no real point in doing all of that technical graphical and yadda yadda data gathering, the only basis that you have when it is all said and done is yeah these numbers are different then these numbers in this anechoic chamber according to this computer data analysis...and should THEORETICALLY sound better (theory, not real world, not law, not proven...simply cant be because you have 10 million different variables ranging from the different car(s) that the driver is going in, to the head units, amps, cd quality, mp3 quality, wire quality...the acoustical mass of air on the given day...etc etc etc..)

You simply can not definitively say that brand X is going to sound better then brand Y because all of the numbers indicate so...what if brand X has a pulp cone and brand Y has a plastic cone, and brand Y plays flatter and models way better then brand X, but when put into the scenario in which it is designed for...it sounds like shit has no bottom end, flops around like a fish out of water and breaks up, and the pulp coned woofer contrary to the numbers and graphical data plays marvelously up to 90Hz?

The only way you can definitively say that is if we all road around in that exact same anechoic chamber that you have built and based all of your testing off of...other then that, you'll never see the same results or response, not to mention everybody's ears are different...in short yes it would be a basis to go off of...but at the end of the day is it really going to matter that said driver sounds like 'crap' according to the graphical data, but in turn it is what i like to listen to and i thoroughly enjoy it?...don't take it to heart...you can argue those very numbers that you have worked so very hard on until you are blue in the face, if the end user doesn't hear what he/she likes to hear, they are not going to give 3 shits what your data says regardless .

We listen with the ears, not with the eyes gentleman, don't forget that.

[DevilDriver 28]

Ugh, Nick.

I didn't say that an anechoic chamber is analog to listening in a vehicle. But that doesn't make the results of the driver in an anechoic chamber less valid...that is still "real world".

What you are suggesting is that, as an engineer, you should not try to understand the relation between objective analysis and subjective opinion, and then design based on that. You should build prototypes until you like the sound of it...but since everyone hears different (which is maybe a bit vague and arguable) how would you know you have a good prototype in the first place?

I'm not saying every present metric for speaker measurement is accurate. THD itself is a dumb metric...it's been shown that some listeners can hear the difference between 1% and 2% THD in an amplifier but can't hear the difference between 10% and 35% THD in a speaker...so the metric itself holds no validity; and this is excluding the lack of proper weighting based on our interpretation of distortion.

But a random thought...I'm not sure if you've listened to the Excel series drivers from Seas before. They sound excellent. AND they measure very well. Nice linear and symmetrical inductance and BL. Same with the Revelators. There is already a fairly strong correlation between what we are able to measure and what we audibly interpret...and the correlation grows stronger with more and more research. The gap exists in some people's understanding of what the measurements represent and how they relate to listening in a different environment.

This is a science vs. religion argument. It is fine if you prefer a different method of evaluating speakers...but that doesn't mean other methods are less valid or should just be ignored when it has strong supporting evidence.

edit: You mention that a speaker installed will sound different if using different HU's, etc. Again, this is not the speaker that has changed! It is everything else. The speakers performance still holds relevance.

edit 2: As someone who has engineered speakers in the past, what is your process? Do you FEA a driver and simulate BL and Cms curves? If so, why?

[Aaron Clinton 2,372]

Hello Blake, welcome to SSA. Please don't take offence to our skeptical staff and members, honestly I am very greatful to see their defensiveness and skepticism on the technical ideals you are striving for. It shows SSA is on a different level of understanding then most websites because they want to know more about it, and that is due to these people who have an unending desire to learn more and more and are actually able to apply their scientific schooling and professional experience to the hobby / sport of audio.

So on to your project, I think a few people are still a little unclear as to what you are going to do or prove differently that others are not doing or have not already done? Neil, brought up Audiojunkies. Lukas Gilkey who started Audiojunkies was initially a competitor to my (SoundSolutionsAudio) online shop. But he has since changed directions with Audiojunkies and we SSA and Audiojunkies help promote each other. You might see a few of our little adds on there, and the Audiojunkies banner is on heavy rotation here, both get thousands of views day in and day out.

Now my question is, for a owner of this site and small sub woofer manu., how is it benificial to us (SSA) to send you a prototype of an upcomming model we have in the works over sending it to a very well informed and respected staff member at Audiojunkies, such as Neil Middlemiss? We don't have the funds to be shipping out 4 & 5 free drivers to people, so we have to be very limited in promotional moves such as that.

I used to write for Momentum Magazine Online, when it was still active, in the automotive performance or products section. I did not do or write anything new or different from Car & Driver or Road & Track, outside of not having the fancy equipement, a professional photographer, and monitary backing. Meaning I did not go around to numerous forums (I mention it because I have seen your topic on multiple forums) saying come to our website and read our stuff.

One instant positive to come from this topic is that is got people sparked up and a great discussion from Nick and Neil. I also am willing to help in some manner, but we just need to understand why you and what is new and better, capiche?

[NDMstang65 403]

Ugh, Nick.

I didn't say that an anechoic chamber is analog to listening in a vehicle. But that doesn't make the results of the driver in an anechoic chamber less valid...that is still "real world".

What you are suggesting is that, as an engineer, you should not try to understand the relation between objective analysis and subjective opinion, and then design based on that. You should build prototypes until you like the sound of it...but since everyone hears different (which is maybe a bit vague and arguable) how would you know you have a good prototype in the first place?

I'm not saying every present metric for speaker measurement is accurate. THD itself is a dumb metric...it's been shown that some listeners can hear the difference between 1% and 2% THD in an amplifier but can't hear the difference between 10% and 35% THD in a speaker...so the metric itself holds no validity; and this is excluding the lack of proper weighting based on our interpretation of distortion.

But a random thought...I'm not sure if you've listened to the Excel series drivers from Seas before. They sound excellent. AND they measure very well. Nice linear and symmetrical inductance and BL. Same with the Revelators. There is already a fairly strong correlation between what we are able to measure and what we audibly interpret...and the correlation grows stronger with more and more research. The gap exists in some people's understanding of what the measurements represent and how they relate to listening in a different environment.

This is a science vs. religion argument. It is fine if you prefer a different method of evaluating speakers...but that doesn't mean other methods are less valid or should just be ignored when it has strong supporting evidence.

edit: You mention that a speaker installed will sound different if using different HU's, etc. Again, this is not the speaker that has changed! It is everything else. The speakers performance still holds relevance.

edit 2: As someone who has engineered speakers in the past, what is your process? Do you FEA a driver and simulate BL and Cms curves? If so, why?

I'm not saying me Neil, i'm not looking in my view point, i'm looking at the end users view point, or the one that actually matters.

I might like fish and chips, but if nobody else in the world likes fish and chips then why should i try to market it or prove to you that fish and chips are fantastic and you should try them?

I did mention that it will sound different with different head units, and different cars...this is simulating the scenario that it is actually going to go in...Nobody runs the same stuff amigo . Your looking way far into everything, keep it simple man.

You can build the coolest car with superior handling to anything on the market...v10, blower, heated seats, heated coffee cup, a/c coffee cup..the PERFECT car. Right?

But some jackass hillbilly buys the car and sinks it in a mud hole with a bunch of his toothless buddies...now that's not the perfect car, now is it? But all the data indicated it is the perfect car for everybody. Right?

Paper is paper amigo, you have to entertain the audience in which you are selling to and is putting food on your table, not your comrades who get their jollies off to numbers and graphical data.

[Aaron Clinton 2,372]

I almost lost it while picturing in my head some dirty hillbilly and his friend of questionable smells, airborne in a 2008 Aston Martin DBS in nose dive formation over some mud hole. Much like the Dodge commericals of a year ago.

[NDMstang65 403]

[Tirefryr 1,742]

Neil, here's what Nick is saying:

True enthusiasts are the only people who are going to be interested in this. They are the only ones who are going to understand it. WHile measurements are great, they don't mean much when it comes to personal tastes.

Blake, don't take our skepticism as bashing. It's not. We're just as skeptical about you as you are about us. You say you can do something others before could not. Or course we're going to question this. It's human nature. If indeed you can do what you say you can, and in a professional manner, your respect will be earned, and rightfully so.

Back to the Nick/Neil argument. I have listened to several XBL^2 and other "flat" drivers and some of them I've liked, others not. I don't pay much attention to all the parameters and measurements anymore as my listening preferences seem to change every couple years. When I got into this hobby I was a basshead. Now I'm more of a mid-basshead. YOu can show me measurements that tell me one driver is better than another for my particular application, but I may still like the other driver better.

Measurements are a great tool. Without them, drivers would never have changed, but in the end, as Nick has stated, it is all about what makes you happy.

[eCrack 0]

Hello Blake, welcome to SSA. Please don't take offence to our skeptical staff and members, honestly I am very greatful to see their defensiveness and skepticism on the technical ideals you are striving for. It shows SSA is on a different level of understanding then most websites because they want to know more about it, and that is due to these people who have an unending desire to learn more and more and are actually able to apply their scientific schooling and professional experience to the hobby / sport of audio.

So on to your project, I think a few people are still a little unclear as to what you are going to do or prove differently that others are not doing or have not already done? Neil, brought up Audiojunkies. Lukas Gilkey who started Audiojunkies was initially a competitor to my (SoundSolutionsAudio) online shop. But he has since changed directions with Audiojunkies and we SSA and Audiojunkies help promote each other. You might see a few of our little adds on there, and the Audiojunkies banner is on heavy rotation here, both get thousands of views day in and day out.

Now my question is, for a owner of this site and small sub woofer manu., how is it benificial to us (SSA) to send you a prototype of an upcomming model we have in the works over sending it to a very well informed and respected staff member at Audiojunkies, such as Neil Middlemiss? We don't have the funds to be shipping out 4 & 5 free drivers to people, so we have to be very limited in promotional moves such as that.

I used to write for Momentum Magazine Online, when it was still active, in the automotive performance or products section. I did not do or write anything new or different from Car & Driver or Road & Track, outside of not having the fancy equipement, a professional photographer, and monitary backing. Meaning I did not go around to numerous forums (I mention it because I have seen your topic on multiple forums) saying come to our website and read our stuff.

One instant positive to come from this topic is that is got people sparked up and a great discussion from Nick and Neil. I also am willing to help in some manner, but we just need to understand why you and what is new and better, capiche?

Well you're glad they are defensive because you view them as defending your site from competitors. I am not a competitor nor am I doing exactly what audiojunkies is doing. I am sorry that it is unclear what I am trying to do. Right now I would just like for people to post their product to my front page when they are about to release it so that the car audio community can have a SINGLE place where they can see all the new product and not have to look for it. This will help everyone, including myself to gain a foothold and get some viewers interested. When I say it will help everyone, I mean everyone will have the same exposure. How many of the top manufacturers do the majority of the markey know about? Probably 5. They know Rockford, Jl, Alpine, MTX, Kenwood, and maybe a few others. If they can see each product with the same exposure then everyone will be more informed. Then I can start with my banner ads, and generate enough to help offset my testing equipment. With testing, I am going to need some pointers. I am not the super guru. I am also not ignorant by any means. I can assure you that after I review something, it will give the reader a much better understanding of what it actually is.

Secondly, I don't expect you to send me free product, but if you were gracious enough to do so, I would return it to you. I am not looking to receive free product. All I would initially like to see, is for people to advertise their new product on my website for free so that we would have ONE place for ONLY car audio news. Right now, you don't have a single page you can make your homepage and be updated with the latest product from each manufacturer. I would like to see that happen. As far as the testing and reviews go, I don't have all of the equipment I need to go as in-depth as I'd like yet. I realize how skeptical people are of this type of thing, so I have been waiting on that portion of the site and wanted to concentrate right now on getting people to advertise their product on our site. Eventually, banner ads will be available for those that wish to partake in that, and that will be the only income-generating portion of the site. The posting of new product will always remain free.

To the debate going on about how numbers give no indication of personal preference I have a question. If a speaker's results indicate a flat response, and they are very similar to a speaker that I enjoyed the sound of, how likely is it that this speaker will sound totally different than the one I've heard in the same application?

Edited January 31, 2008 by eCrack

[Aaron Clinton 2,372]

Blake, we do not and will not have a front page for only advertising new product. That is not what the entire forum is about, the shop on the other hand is a different story. If I wanted to make this a rolling add banner, then this site would have died off 5 years ago. We have a growing home audio community here also.

9 times out of 10, a potential customer is going to go to the website of the company they are looking at for new products, not here. The company forums are a great place to read about and see topics on new products, but all of these companies are very small by industry standards, so that means longer model life spans and all new products much less often. As for competiton, I never mentioned you were potential competition. For you to get the level of traffic you are after, and the amount of add revenue to support the site, you are not going to get it from the companies here. We as a collective are a very very small sliver of the industry and name recognition is huge in audio, regardless if the product is good or not. If someone wants to know about RF T1 subs or Pioneer amps, they will not come here to ask for the most part.

[eCrack 0]

Blake, we do not and will not have a front page for only advertising new product. That is not what the entire forum is about, the shop on the other hand is a different story. If I wanted to make this a rolling add banner, then this site would have died off 5 years ago. We have a growing home audio community here also.

9 times out of 10, a potential customer is going to go to the website of the company they are looking at for new products, not here. The company forums are a great place to read about and see topics on new products, but all of these companies are very small by industry standards, so that means longer model life spans and all new products much less often. As for competiton, I never mentioned you were potential competition. For you to get the level of traffic you are after, and the amount of add revenue to support the site, you are not going to get it from the companies here. We as a collective are a very very small sliver of the industry and name recognition is huge in audio, regardless if the product is good or not. If someone wants to know about RF T1 subs or Pioneer amps, they will not come here to ask for the most part.

Yes you made each of my points for me with that statement. Thank you. I was not asking you to have that page. That is what I will be doing.

The manufacturers may not come out with new product all the time, but they may have a breakthrough as far as a record set with their product. They may release recone kits for them. There are ample ways to advertise without having a new product to launch. Your site may have died off, but mine won't if people will give it a chance. I am having a hard time overcoming the so called "experts" short-sightedness.