3-Way Front Stage

[Porchpup 0]

Ok I know you guys can get WAY too technical (not to mention harsh) for me but I'm going to try this anyway.

I am currently running an active 2-way front stage plus two (sealed,downfired) 12" TC-9's in a Chevy Colorado extended cab. See profile.

Although I am pleased with this setup I'm still lacking that "something" that makes it near perfect to my taste.

In my mind I'm looking for SQ but I have seen too many people beaten down for using that term because we do not know what SQ is, let alone how to achieve it.

I can not...nor will I...argue with that. I am 46 so I'm not going to play the 16 year old that knows more than everybody here and refuse to listen to advice.

With that said here's what I'm up against. I would like to go with an active 3-way front stage but I DO NOT want to alter my door panels.

Meaning midbass and tweets must stay in stock locations and off axis. I also like the idea of a small dome midrange glassed in the kicks due to the fact I can't loose anymore foot room.

Max mounting dept in the doors for midbass is 2 3/4" and doors are well deadened. Crossovers are controlled by an Audio Control DQXS and front stage amps are Sundown 100.4 and 100.2.

First off the Subs are great so we'll leave them alone. What I'm looking for in midbass is more authority, chest pounding kick to blend with the subs. The drums are very important to my ears.

My midrange is near null. Vocals are the weakest point in my present set-up. As of now I'd prefer to listen to anything without vocals. They are just not right and I don't know how else to explain it.

As for tweets, they are "OK" but could be better. I do tend to turn them down. I don't like the harsh, ear piercing highs that ring in your head for 15 minutes but I do like them to be crystal clear.

So here's what I have determined that I would like to try. Budget is around $250 for front stage. Crossover points are of course just a starting point.

Midbass----Mach5 MLI65. Crossed at around 80 up to 600 Hz. Subs handle everything below that. BTW my doors are for 6 1/2 woofers.

http://www.soundsolutionsaudio.com/shop/in...p;productId=157

Midrange---Dayton RS52AN-8. Crossed at around 600 up to 4500 Hz. This one is still up in the air. I like the small design of a cone with the ability to move around until I'm happy with a location.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cf...6980947#reviews

Tweets------Seas 27TFFNC/G. 4500 Hz and up. I don't want to go large format so this one will still fit the stock location. Not real sure if I want metal or textile.

http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_i...roducts_id=1466

At 46 my ears are not near well trained as most of you so take that into account. Yes I do like loud music but I'm not out to break any records.

With a cheap RadioShack sound meter my current system is running about 110 to 120 db (on bass heavy music) and that is plenty for me.

I listen to mainly classic rock, country, hip hop, techno, jazz. Hell I'll listen to anything expect that new screaming, off key, make want to kill somebody so-called rock that some of you call music.

I apologize for rambling but I'm trying to give you as much info as possible. I do value you guys opinion or I would not ask so chime in with your thoughts.

Thanks Jim.

[vladd 26]

my only two concerns with that setup would be your crossover and the MLI's. I've never used either so i'm not sure if the AC will be sufficient or easy to change, if it's the style where you have the interchangeable modules i suppose it would work but being able to change the crossover point from your listening position is invaluable.

the MLI's i'm sure someone else can chime in on. I'm not sure if they're going to be beefy enough on the bottom end to be a dedicated midbass. But i have zero experience with them, i'm just saying do more research before purchasing.

[johnecon2001 82]

Here's another thing to consider even before you start looking for more drivers.

If you don't want to move the drivers around in the doors, you need some kind of digital time alignment to get your sound in the right places and in phase (cancellation is bad).

Also, is there anyway to fit a 7" driver instead of a 6.5? I'd go with a 7" midbass, 2-4" midrange and 1" tweet.

If you find yourself wincing over harshness in tweets, you should stay away from anything of a metal nature as those tend to be a bit more bright and harshish (that's not always the case though).

[kryptonitewhite 1]

I love what youre doing, I'm in the same...I'm no SQ pro, but I'm doing a 3 way active front stage and tried to incorperate aiming and such.

[Porchpup 0]

my only two concerns with that setup would be your crossover and the MLI's. I've never used either so i'm not sure if the AC will be sufficient or easy to change, if it's the style where you have the interchangeable modules i suppose it would work but being able to change the crossover point from your listening position is invaluable.

Yes the AC DQXS is a change on the fly model. As of now I'm using it for Sub, Mid, High. I believe it has enough adjustment to convert to a front stage only.

If you don't want to move the drivers around in the doors, you need some kind of digital time alignment to get your sound in the right places and in phase (cancellation is bad).

To be honest with you I have never played with time alignment so that would be a whole new world to me.

I like that idea but I see me making it only worst with too many adjustments that I don't totally understand.

Also, is there anyway to fit a 7" driver instead of a 6.5?

I might be able to fit a 7". The Quarts I have now are not supposed to fit either so I'm pretty good at making do.

If you find yourself wincing over harshness in tweets, you should stay away from anything of a metal nature as those tend to be a bit more bright and harshish (that's not always the case though).

That's what I'm tinking too. Go with the textile?

[vladd 26]

time alignment is not that difficult at all and can make HUGE differences in your system. The only substitute for t/a IMO is having every speaker on axis and the exact same distant from the listener.

[helotaxi 46]

Time alignment is nice, but it can't correct for aiming issues. It doesn't change the sound propagation of the driver. You don't want to alter the doors, so having the midbasses playing up too high is going to mess with things because you can't aim them. I haven't seen the inside of the doors in your truck, but chances are that there is some space between the door panel and the sheet metal. That space will sometimes allow you to go with a larger driver spaced out from the sheetmetal that will still "fit" in the smaller hole in the door. Bigger is better. If you could fit a shallow 8" woofer (not a sub just a basic bass driver) spaced out a bit, that would be the best route to go. Like I said though, not sure how much room you have to work with but something to think about.

From there if you're going to consider glassing a mid into the kickpanel, put the tweeter right next to it. That will allow you to aim it. With a dome mid and tweet combo in the kick, you can do quite a bit without a lot of room. The fact that most dome mids propagate better than cone drivers is nice in that regard since you don't have to angle them as much for good results. The problem with a dome mid is where the lower crossover point usually has to be. You typically have to go pretty high which as discussed above is less than optimal for midbasses mounted in the stock door locations. If you could fit a small cone mid in the kicks on a bit of an angle that would probably work out better.

For the tweets, don't focus on material. You can't categorize sound on dome material with good drivers. Since you're going 3 way, the tweet can (and should) be crossed higher than a normal 2-way allowing the mid to do its job and play as much of the spectrum as it can. Because of this you don't have to concentrate on finding a tweet with a low Fs, you only care about response on the top end and if you aim them in the kicks near the mids, off axis response becomes less important as well.

After saying all that, I don't have anything specific to recommend as far as drivers go.

[johnecon2001 82]

After saying all that, I don't have anything specific to recommend as far as drivers go.

hahahahahaha

[Porchpup 0]

As for the time alignment I'm beginning to understand that a little more. I was listening to Ode to Billy Joe by Patricia Barber and notice the "Arena" effect or slight echo that I do not hear with headphones.

Do I understand that time alignment will correct this and help with stage imaging. By correcting the amount of time it takes to get to the drivers ear, won't it make the effect worst for the passengers ear?

Is this correction more of a Mid driver and High driver time adjustment over a left and right adjustment or am I missing something and on the totally wrong track?

BTW I couldn't pass on the One Day Only Sale and went ahead and picked up a pair of the MLI-65's. For $50 I had to at least give them a shot.

[helotaxi 46]

You can use TA to correct for left-right path-length differences or for mid-tweet differences or for both. If you use it to correct for left-right, front seat occupant or the other is going to get the short end of the deal.

[///M5 2,833]

First I'd ask why the 3 way or if you would prefer, what about your current 2 way don't you like? Some details and even better pictures of the current install would help.

My reaction to your current driver selection is:

6.5" midbass -- you really, really should try to fit an 8. Most likely minor modifications would be necessary, if not at least a 7.

You have to put the mid and tweeter together in the kicks, it will make the install (which again is WAY more important than the drivers within reason of course) all that much better. Considering these are in the kicks and therefore can be on axis I would go with a standard cone driver and one that will play much lower than the Dayton you are looking at. The goal to have as much as possible of the sonic spectrum coming out of your kicks.

Your tweeter selection wouldn't be my first for a three way unless paired with a mid that can't play that high which you would only do if you were trying to alleviate any response from the driver in your doors.

Anyways, real help can't come until you define what you don't like about what you have.

[Porchpup 0]

First I'd ask why the 3 way or if you would prefer, what about your current 2 way don't you like?

Anyways, real help can't come until you define what you don't like about what you have.

With all the rambling I did in the first post I thought that I did define this. I don't know how else to put it into words.

I really do understand that the install is far more important than components but is there no happy medium?

I'm not trying to be an ass but if all things remain equal, wouldn't it go without saying a set of Rainbows would sound better than a set of Kracos in the same install?

Well maybe that's a little overboard but you see what I mean. Sure the Rainbows may not be performing to their full potential but it's got to be an improvement.

The thing that I keep hearing is without altering my doors/panels, kick panels and without proper aiming, imaging and time alignment I can't improve the quality of my system.

To ///M5 and all the others that have replied, I really do respect the work that you guys do to reach ultimate SQ and maybe I sound like I'm being difficult but is there really no way to improve without major mods to my truck?

[///M5 2,833]

You have to put the mid and tweeter together in the kicks, it will make the install (which again is WAY more important than the drivers within reason of course) all that much better. Considering these are in the kicks and therefore can be on axis I would go with a standard cone driver and one that will play much lower than the Dayton you are looking at. The goal to have as much as possible of the sonic spectrum coming out of your kicks.

You missed my within reason which was to keep the Kraco/Rainbow comparison away. You do need to start with realistic drivers, but that choice is typically pretty personal. So as to your compromise, sure there are ways but without pictures and documentation on the space you have it is pretty hard to recommend anything.

Ok I know you guys can get WAY too technical (not to mention harsh) for me but I'm going to try this anyway.

I am currently running an active 2-way front stage plus two (sealed,downfired) 12" TC-9's in a Chevy Colorado extended cab. See profile.

Although I am pleased with this setup I'm still lacking that "something" that makes it near perfect to my taste.

So far the only thing you have told us that you don't like about your two way is that there is still "something" lacking that makes it perfect to your taste. A 3 way is NOT a solution for this, but tuning is. If you were more specific and described what it is that is lacking then we could help.

[Porchpup 0]

I know you guys hate repeating yourselves as so do I, so let's start over again.

My Cat got locked in my truck and has eaten my speakers so now I need new ones.

How do you think the above combination of drivers would work in a small ext cab truck without any mods to the door panels.