hdrox88

I think I may hold out to see the sample results. If they are anything like the ethos that are getting so much praise, then these should be worth the wait.

Damn it, I am in the market at the moment too. Don't know if I can hold out that long.

That site is a gold mine if you have a halfway decent understanding of what you are looking at. The in-depth review on the L18 was great and has me considering a driver I probably would have overlooked.

I've read through the two links to zaph to the best of my abilities and there are several drivers that stand out in that review group. I'll list them here in hopes of narrowing them down or getting other suggestions in places to look. I'm not afraid of spending time tuning, just so long as I have slim-to-none of that harmonic distortion to deal with. 1. Seas CA18RNX - Initial suggestion and looks like a great bang for the buck with a pretty wide response range. 2. Seas ER18RNX - Seems like a possible slight upgrade to the CA18. 3. Seas L18RNX - Considering the metal cone after reading this review: http://www.zaphaudio.com/audio-speaker17.html and I'm pairing with a tweet that can play fairly low. 4. Seas W18NX - Most expensive in the group, but seems like a really nice driver if it's truly a "get what you pay for" situation. 5. ScanSpeak 18W8531G - Pricey, but looks like a very well rounded driver with "very low HD." 6. 18Sound 6ND430 - Midbass seems a pinch lacking compared to the others, though that may be the compromise for the output I'm looking for. 7. Usher 8945P - Looks great for the price if you can find it available.

I've just been looking through the first link that J just posted and recognized the scanspeak. I didn't spend much time with music at 1.25khz on the xover. When I was playing with tones, 800hz and 1250hz really made the irritation stand out big time. It was actually slightly painful. I can hear it in some of the nearby frequencies as well, but that is where it got really bad. Ha, I just realized I used 1.25khz and 1250hz, don't mind me.

Patience is a virtue...sorry I couldn't help myself. I've had stuff show up before the tracking number ever showed anything. Sometimes it is out of the vendors hands and in fact the shipping company is missing a scan somewhere or their system is slow to update.

Lets see how close I can get, lol 1. Seas CA? 2. Seas U? 3. ? 4. Alpine SPX? 5. Seas W? I only looked up the U. J, I think you are on to something. What you just described makes me feel like you nailed it on the head. At first, I was blown away by these things. As time went on and up til now I get more and more disgusted with them. More-so in the last few weeks. Apparently, harmonic distortion is plaguing me here as no matter what I do I can't get rid of the irritation. I would say that is probably my only real complaint at this point. Every time a voice hits a higher note, I wince. Sometimes mid to high notes on elec guitar will have a strange sound, almost like an echo to it, or as if it were two of them trying to play the same thing at the same time. It makes rock music less than enjoyable when I hear it. What does one look for at this point? I've been surfing the Madisound site and majority of the response plots look fairly close to one another to me. Some interesting stuff on parts express, though I have no idea what I am really looking at.

One of the phase plugs was rolling around in the box when I got them and one of the cones got a small, almost unnoticeable dent. I never thought anything of it. Not sure about warping, but when looking at the driver straight on it looks as if something is misaligned. The phase plug does not look centered compared to the cone/coil.

I have ruled out the HU and amp as the culprit for the irritant I am fighting. I hooked my ipad up to the amp with a RCA to 3.5mm cable. It wasn't as easy to hear since the mid was getting full range signal but it was still there. I swapped the zapco for a JL 300/4 and the annoying sound was there just the same. That leaves source material, speaker wire, and speakers, though I'm fairly confident speaker wire wouldn't cause such a problem. 12ga. ofc is a pretty standard wire.

They are in the doors, I mentioned in an earlier post that I had pods on hand.

Makes perfect sense. I was doing a little research on the mentioned driver and couldn't help but notice the drop in power handling and sensitivity. I know ratings vary from one manufacturer to the other, but it's enough of a difference to raise an eyebrow. I realize we newbies need to learn to walk before we can run, but I'd hate to take a step backward in output. My xcon 15 can already start to overpower everything else when I really let it loose. I also noticed one site had enclosure specs listed, would running IB in the door be ok for it? I'm don't think I'm ready for enclosures in the front end yet.

That makes sense, though would it not behave the same when switching to the passenger seat? Of course, I'm sure the steering wheel can have a pretty big impact on stuff like this? Parking brake pedal is close as well now that I think about it.I suppose this is where axis not only affects the line of sight response, but the reflective response as well?

From 200hz and up I can't really hear any difference from left to right mid in either seat. It is only when I try 125hz and 80hz tones that the left mid suddenly drops off. I was able to eq the difference out with about 3-4db of total adjustment as I mentioned in my last post. Sitting in the driver seat, if I listen to 125hz on the left mid and turn on the right, the volume jumps. If I start with the right mid and bring in the left, I don't really notice an increase in volume. I didn't notice there was a difference in mid bass response from left to right until I actually started listening to them independently. One thing I did notice yesterday, when at very low volume at 125hz(just enough to actually hear the tone) I also heard what was almost like a squeaky noise in the left mid. It was so faint I almost didn't hear it over the tone even at low volume. I though it was odd and maybe worth mentioning.

Is this the same if you change seats? Did you determine this listening to each independently? I did compare the left to right by listening to them independently. I did just try sitting in the passenger seat though and the response sounds fairly equal, left vs right. Sitting in the driver seat it is very obvious that once you get to 125hz or 80hz, response is several db less. I was using test tones to verify this. If I use the eq and +1 on the left and -2 or -3 on the right It gets them pretty close. Has this helped you determine what about them you want to make better? Remember you will trade off frequency response for output. I can guess what I think you want, but you telling us is better At this point, the irritation is my biggest complaint. Second place is the gnarly peak in response at around 800-1250hz or so. I am not sure if this is going hand in hand with the irritation though as that is where it is most noticeable, and maybe it is making the peak sound worse than it is. Third, I would say mid bass could be helped a little, though if the left mid was putting out like the right one then it may not even be an issue for me at all. As for the xover gap, mids are 1.6khz@12db and tweets are at 2.5khz@12db, it seems to be ok for the system as a whole. Again, the irritation may be impeding my judgement on this as well.

At the cost of sounding anxious, I feel like an end result is pretty close. I'm not sure of any other testing to be doing at this point, or when I should be shopping. I didn't want to be making any stabs in the dark this time around, so all the help thus far has been greatly appreciated.

That's what I thought, just wasn't concrete on the matter as far as what frequency axis really starts playing a role. I'm really hoping the drivers are the root of the irritation problem as they are needing replaced anyway now. Now that I think about it, that issue has been there since day one. Even before I bridged the mids on the 4ch.

I'd say the occasional coil scratch sound is fairly equal between the two drivers, as is the irritation I am trying to figure out. It is just the left mid that is dropping off bad at <125hz. Is that from being way off axis, or a sign that it is closer to complete failure compared to the other mid?

Ya, I'm pretty sure they aren't to happy with me. When playing music I don't really hear the scraping much at all. I know what it is when I do hear it though. I am curious if the coil being in less than ideal condition can cause the irritation problem I'm having.

I haven't touched the gain since I did the install. Yes, when I physically push on the cone I get the scraping noise a little. if put the slightest bit more pressure on one side it is really bad. When looking at the mid straight on, the phase plug and coil are not concentric to each other either. Like something is off center.

Yes, the tweeters just had the little bit of SSS going on but that seems to be addressed now. I don't know how else to describe the irritation other than what I had mentioned earlier with the chalkboard analogy. I'm not sure if it can make a difference, but can pushing them too hard cause permanent damage that would cause such a thing? I've had them hot and stink twice since since I started really trying to see what they can do. I get what sounds like coil rub every now and then, just curious if that could be causing the irritation even though I don't hear the coil rub sound when I am getting the irritation.

I made some test tones with the generator in the link above. I used the same frequencies as the bands in the eq on the 80prs to help simplify what I was doing. I found 800hz and 1250hz needing to be cut a lot(-4db to -6db) to help curb the irritation in the mids. I was playing the tones on a semi low volume while doing this. I did each of the four drivers independently, just getting each one to have the most equal response I could get. Unfortunately, when I played music and brought the volume up to moderate to high levels the irritation was still there. It seemed to help with the SSS in the tweeters though so I guess that is a plus. I got what seems to be a much flatter response across the board, but I did nothing for the irritation. As for the "gap," I dropped the tweets to 2.5khz@12db as it was lacking in that area too much.

I did some more testing today. On the tweeters I I seem to have settled on 3.15k @ 12db as the lowest xover point while retaining acceptable sound. At times they have a hissy sound to the "s" in vocals, like a little extra SSS. Part of that I think may be that I am hitting the limits of the HU internal amp since the tweets are on the HU right now. For the mids I can run 1.25khz @ 12 db or 1.6khz @ 18db while keeping irritation to a minimum. Upon further/closer listening it seems there is something not quite right that I can't seem to tune out completely. It is most prominent in vocals and makes no difference in CD or ipad listening. I liken it to the irritation of nails on a chalkboard. It doesn't actually sound like nails on a chalkboard, but the way it irritates the ears is nearly identical to me. The music and vocals are clear, but there is an irritation in my ears that makes me wince when listening to the individual mids, left or right makes no difference. A little side detail, I have a set of Sony MDR-V6 headphones that I plugged into the headphone jack of my ipad and I can't find any of that irritation that way.

I did not. I'll give that a try and see what I come up with. I to was thinking that seemed low for tweeters. It didn't seem to have an adverse effect on the sound, but makes me nervous nonetheless. Thanks for all the help so far everyone, especially M5. The time spent on this thread alone is more than I ever expected.

Listening independently I ended up at 1.6khz and it sounds much better, both individually and as a whole without the sub on. Much smoother and balanced. Having the tweet that low makes me a little nervous but it sounds fine when listening to each one by itself.

The mid and tweet are currently at 3.15k.