///M5

No generic answer. Depends on how you are cooking them.

I went out to do a WOT -> 3rd gear run and of course it started raining Truck rips and at WOT I am currently at 11.1 AFR. Time to lean it down a bunch and try again.

Couple tune iterations later and tomorrow AM I get to run the quarter. Need a WOT log for at least 1000'

Only game I see on right now is Chicago - Anaheim

First drive in 20

I really wish the Galpin Rocket was not $125k. Frickin' gorgeous.

3.8 stock bottom end can support about 500rwhp, no? I briefly searched for a 231 shortblock that could support real power. Jegs/Summit etc don't sell them. That tells a story....

Simple math too. With a turbo that supports 700hp and having 2 you will need one hell of a bottom end to support that. The economics of getting a wee 6 to do it versus and 8 is confusing. Normally once you eclipse 7-800 or so is where the transition to an LS becomes super cheap in comparison. I think the LS is a turd btw. Antique technology. It has one super advantage on most other things though and it is economy of scale.

Don't get me wrong, the GN was wicked in its time. So was the 64 GTO though. You surely don't see too many people swapping a 389 into a 4th gen GTO. The other way around though is becoming commonplace. Sure it would be more unique to have the older mill in the newer car, but why?

And to be clear, what I did was stupid. An Escalade will NEVER be fast. Of course I never plan to race anything. I don't give a shit what people think of it. I didn't build the truck to be original, to show off, but just to make me happy as I drive it around and fill my needs for a vehicle. If I didn't have a driveway that was a cliff, need to pull a snowmobile trailer since we never get snow, and have kiddies to transport around I'd be in something EXTREMELY different.

Exactly. There are things now like more than 2 valves per cylinder, overhead camshafts... Even my diesel is DOHC. The LS 4.8 I cited doesn't have 2...but it will still rape any Grand National motor. Not having a completely modern Fuel Injection system is retarded if you are building a car. Obvious exception is old shit with a carb, but once you go injected use a modern piece.The GN used port injection, so the fuel system is virtually the same. He would have to go stand-alone or adapt (which would be simple given tbe Camaro already has the same system basics) the existing system. Basically a pump/injector/regulator swap, and a good tune.Complete drop in LS with harness and ECU are dirt cheap. The dumb thing here is that in a Turbo motor it isn't the motor that makes power but the Turbo. Comes down to what will run the Turbo more efficientliy and this is where the LS will destroy things. Doesn't suck that if you pop a stock motor you can pick one up for $200. Plenty of guys running stock bottom ends near 1000hp with them. Good luck with a GN motor doing that. That alone tells the whole story. Your argument was that the fuel system is archaic when indeed it's not. While we're at it, the Buick 3.8 architecture has changed very little since the 70s, so even the GN engine could be considered modern. Hell, if you want to argue further, there's nothing advanced about the LS design either. Most all it's technology is old and proven and been in use for decades, so. . I really see no valid points here. His stock harness will almost plug right in, so there's half the battle won. GM used both the 3800 and 3400 in them. I personally would use the Vortec 4.3 if doing a six. You also have to remember your definition of cheap is far different than many others on the board. Not everyone wants an LS swap. Hotrodding encompasses all types. With boost, computer controls, and advancements in materials and machining, it's relatively simple and economical to make big power with anything. More interested in the ECU from 98 on than the motor. That was my comment. Sure you can do an aftermarket and I realize not everyone wants an LS, but in a car that will never be worth anything starting off with the cheapest way to make power is logical.The LS is not logical in his instance. He has to source more parts and perform more labor. He could literally run down to the junk yard, get a 3800 slap on the turbos, drive to the tuner and be driving daily. LS will require harness removal and installation, relocation of some underhood and chassis items, a new driveshaft, extra parts he won't need for the V6, and so on. The only advantages the LS provides is the potential for more power and the huge aftermarket. The LT1 has more capability to make power than the 3.8 for less too. If I were bothering to do a swap though I wouldn't step backwards. You're missing the point entirely. You're calling the guy stupid and telling him he's wrong because it's not what you would do or what you think is best. It doesn't matter what you think or know, it's not your car. The part I said he is wrong on is the unique aspect. As for building the car, I don't understand even buying one of those things.Maybe you should watch this Not far from stock with a single T66.. I don't even need to, pretty easy to know what a T66 can support. Engine is only a way of making a turbo spool pretty much.

Exactly. There are things now like more than 2 valves per cylinder, overhead camshafts... Even my diesel is DOHC. The LS 4.8 I cited doesn't have 2...but it will still rape any Grand National motor. Not having a completely modern Fuel Injection system is retarded if you are building a car. Obvious exception is old shit with a carb, but once you go injected use a modern piece.The GN used port injection, so the fuel system is virtually the same. He would have to go stand-alone or adapt (which would be simple given tbe Camaro already has the same system basics) the existing system. Basically a pump/injector/regulator swap, and a good tune.Complete drop in LS with harness and ECU are dirt cheap. The dumb thing here is that in a Turbo motor it isn't the motor that makes power but the Turbo. Comes down to what will run the Turbo more efficientliy and this is where the LS will destroy things. Doesn't suck that if you pop a stock motor you can pick one up for $200. Plenty of guys running stock bottom ends near 1000hp with them. Good luck with a GN motor doing that. That alone tells the whole story. Your argument was that the fuel system is archaic when indeed it's not. While we're at it, the Buick 3.8 architecture has changed very little since the 70s, so even the GN engine could be considered modern. Hell, if you want to argue further, there's nothing advanced about the LS design either. Most all it's technology is old and proven and been in use for decades, so. . I really see no valid points here. His stock harness will almost plug right in, so there's half the battle won. GM used both the 3800 and 3400 in them. I personally would use the Vortec 4.3 if doing a six. You also have to remember your definition of cheap is far different than many others on the board. Not everyone wants an LS swap. Hotrodding encompasses all types. With boost, computer controls, and advancements in materials and machining, it's relatively simple and economical to make big power with anything. More interested in the ECU from 98 on than the motor. That was my comment. Sure you can do an aftermarket and I realize not everyone wants an LS, but in a car that will never be worth anything starting off with the cheapest way to make power is logical.The LS is not logical in his instance. He has to source more parts and perform more labor. He could literally run down to the junk yard, get a 3800 slap on the turbos, drive to the tuner and be driving daily. LS will require harness removal and installation, relocation of some underhood and chassis items, a new driveshaft, extra parts he won't need for the V6, and so on. The only advantages the LS provides is the potential for more power and the huge aftermarket. The LT1 has more capability to make power than the 3.8 for less too. If I were bothering to do a swap though I wouldn't step backwards. You're missing the point entirely. You're calling the guy stupid and telling him he's wrong because it's not what you would do or what you think is best. It doesn't matter what you think or know, it's not your car. The part I said he is wrong on is the unique aspect. As for building the car, I don't understand even buying one of those things.

Can't be logical. Probably the ugliest car ever made both interior and exterior. And building for bragging rights is shameful as for being unique, it isn't.

I'd feel safer with the Ford. I am fully expecting the capability to damage. I am also planning on a shortblock. Just not sure how ridiculous of a short block to build nor what cubic inches. Had I done one already I would have built something to support 1500hp+ which in reality would probably mean I waste $2-3k that I don't need to spend. As for the displacement it really depends if I plan to use the block in something else with a turbo instead of a PD down the road. If so, I'll build less cubes than I have. If not I surely wouldn't go down in size, lol.

Hardly anything needs relocating. Driveshaft & tranny are fine, just need a K-member. Computer and harness comes with the junkyard block. I am not even sure it is more work. The conversion is rather straight forward. Of course if you are building a 4th gen, not buying a 98 or newer is a waste from the get go. Doing a swap even dumber. Why it is even more amusing. Even throwing $600 into a K-member (which you wouldn't need to do) you'd get to a real power level for much less than using a 3.8. Hell just the savings in buying a single turbo is huge.

Parts age, lol. Over 100k on the truck.

Exactly. There are things now like more than 2 valves per cylinder, overhead camshafts... Even my diesel is DOHC. The LS 4.8 I cited doesn't have 2...but it will still rape any Grand National motor. Not having a completely modern Fuel Injection system is retarded if you are building a car. Obvious exception is old shit with a carb, but once you go injected use a modern piece.The GN used port injection, so the fuel system is virtually the same. He would have to go stand-alone or adapt (which would be simple given tbe Camaro already has the same system basics) the existing system. Basically a pump/injector/regulator swap, and a good tune.Complete drop in LS with harness and ECU are dirt cheap. The dumb thing here is that in a Turbo motor it isn't the motor that makes power but the Turbo. Comes down to what will run the Turbo more efficientliy and this is where the LS will destroy things. Doesn't suck that if you pop a stock motor you can pick one up for $200. Plenty of guys running stock bottom ends near 1000hp with them. Good luck with a GN motor doing that. That alone tells the whole story. Your argument was that the fuel system is archaic when indeed it's not. While we're at it, the Buick 3.8 architecture has changed very little since the 70s, so even the GN engine could be considered modern. Hell, if you want to argue further, there's nothing advanced about the LS design either. Most all it's technology is old and proven and been in use for decades, so. . I really see no valid points here. His stock harness will almost plug right in, so there's half the battle won. GM used both the 3800 and 3400 in them. I personally would use the Vortec 4.3 if doing a six. You also have to remember your definition of cheap is far different than many others on the board. Not everyone wants an LS swap. Hotrodding encompasses all types. With boost, computer controls, and advancements in materials and machining, it's relatively simple and economical to make big power with anything. More interested in the ECU from 98 on than the motor. That was my comment. Sure you can do an aftermarket and I realize not everyone wants an LS, but in a car that will never be worth anything starting off with the cheapest way to make power is logical. Nice sean!...But if you had any common sense you would have built the lower end why you had it tore apart...Hope you have stayed up to date with AAA payments:)Not really. Stock block is a problem on the truck so building it wouldn't help. It's all aluminum so pushing water becomes a reality. Pulling the block out to just to pistons would be idiotic. This is also again where a modern ECU is huge. Unlimited control of everything so I can run closer to the edge and still have a safety margin. Stock block can easily support getting into the 10's. I followed a lot of fsc guys in the past and I have never heard of an instance where the bottom end blew. I'm NOT saying its not possible, just saying that these guys where testing out stupid crazy ideas and blowing out the bottom end was not a common occurrence. Transmissions on the other hand.... But those were mostly 4l60E's 6L80e's have shown to be stable to well into the 800 range. A rebuild is also cheap and the necessary "build" parts to make it robust are as well. I have a complete how to guide on a rebuild to make it necessary. Happens to be from the guy I bought my parts from too.

Exactly. There are things now like more than 2 valves per cylinder, overhead camshafts... Even my diesel is DOHC. The LS 4.8 I cited doesn't have 2...but it will still rape any Grand National motor. Not having a completely modern Fuel Injection system is retarded if you are building a car. Obvious exception is old shit with a carb, but once you go injected use a modern piece.The GN used port injection, so the fuel system is virtually the same. He would have to go stand-alone or adapt (which would be simple given tbe Camaro already has the same system basics) the existing system. Basically a pump/injector/regulator swap, and a good tune.Complete drop in LS with harness and ECU are dirt cheap. The dumb thing here is that in a Turbo motor it isn't the motor that makes power but the Turbo. Comes down to what will run the Turbo more efficientliy and this is where the LS will destroy things. Doesn't suck that if you pop a stock motor you can pick one up for $200. Plenty of guys running stock bottom ends near 1000hp with them. Good luck with a GN motor doing that. That alone tells the whole story. Your argument was that the fuel system is archaic when indeed it's not. While we're at it, the Buick 3.8 architecture has changed very little since the 70s, so even the GN engine could be considered modern. Hell, if you want to argue further, there's nothing advanced about the LS design either. Most all it's technology is old and proven and been in use for decades, so. . I really see no valid points here. His stock harness will almost plug right in, so there's half the battle won. GM used both the 3800 and 3400 in them. I personally would use the Vortec 4.3 if doing a six. You also have to remember your definition of cheap is far different than many others on the board. Not everyone wants an LS swap. Hotrodding encompasses all types. With boost, computer controls, and advancements in materials and machining, it's relatively simple and economical to make big power with anything. More interested in the ECU from 98 on than the motor. That was my comment. Sure you can do an aftermarket and I realize not everyone wants an LS, but in a car that will never be worth anything starting off with the cheapest way to make power is logical. The LS is not logical in his instance. He has to source more parts and perform more labor. He could literally run down to the junk yard, get a 3800 slap on the turbos, drive to the tuner and be driving daily. LS will require harness removal and installation, relocation of some underhood and chassis items, a new driveshaft, extra parts he won't need for the V6, and so on. The only advantages the LS provides is the potential for more power and the huge aftermarket. The LT1 has more capability to make power than the 3.8 for less too. If I were bothering to do a swap though I wouldn't step backwards.

Is it running? Did they send you a base tune? It started absolutely normal. Idled it for 3min to make sure there were no leaks and top off the fluids. Only thing left to do today is to put on the hood. The base tune will "limit" me to 3k rpm's or so as we determine the final air mapping, but I will be driving the truck today to log it. The cold air intake is in the mail, that will change it all again so I get to tune/adjust 2x. More learning for me.

Is it running? Did they send you a base tune? It started absolutely normal. Idled it for 3min to make sure there were no leaks and top off the fluids. Only thing left to do today is to put on the hood. The base tune will "limit" me to 3k rpm's or so as we determine the final air mapping, but I will be driving the truck today to log it. The cold air intake is in the mail, that will change it all again so I get to tune/adjust 2x. More learning for me.

Problem with the wee 3.8 is that it isn't big enough to turn a big turbo. In a turbo setup you size the turbo for the power you want and then the motor to spin the turbo and not the other way around. Sure you can float off the efficiency curve and do something different, but that is akin to using a poor alignment on a subwoofer. Not the best way to get the job done.

Exactly. There are things now like more than 2 valves per cylinder, overhead camshafts... Even my diesel is DOHC. The LS 4.8 I cited doesn't have 2...but it will still rape any Grand National motor. Not having a completely modern Fuel Injection system is retarded if you are building a car. Obvious exception is old shit with a carb, but once you go injected use a modern piece.The GN used port injection, so the fuel system is virtually the same. He would have to go stand-alone or adapt (which would be simple given tbe Camaro already has the same system basics) the existing system. Basically a pump/injector/regulator swap, and a good tune.Complete drop in LS with harness and ECU are dirt cheap. The dumb thing here is that in a Turbo motor it isn't the motor that makes power but the Turbo. Comes down to what will run the Turbo more efficientliy and this is where the LS will destroy things. Doesn't suck that if you pop a stock motor you can pick one up for $200. Plenty of guys running stock bottom ends near 1000hp with them. Good luck with a GN motor doing that. That alone tells the whole story. Your argument was that the fuel system is archaic when indeed it's not. While we're at it, the Buick 3.8 architecture has changed very little since the 70s, so even the GN engine could be considered modern. Hell, if you want to argue further, there's nothing advanced about the LS design either. Most all it's technology is old and proven and been in use for decades, so. . I really see no valid points here. His stock harness will almost plug right in, so there's half the battle won. GM used both the 3800 and 3400 in them. I personally would use the Vortec 4.3 if doing a six. You also have to remember your definition of cheap is far different than many others on the board. Not everyone wants an LS swap. Hotrodding encompasses all types. With boost, computer controls, and advancements in materials and machining, it's relatively simple and economical to make big power with anything. More interested in the ECU from 98 on than the motor. That was my comment. Sure you can do an aftermarket and I realize not everyone wants an LS, but in a car that will never be worth anything starting off with the cheapest way to make power is logical. Nice sean!...But if you had any common sense you would have built the lower end why you had it tore apart...Hope you have stayed up to date with AAA payments:)Not really. Stock block is a problem on the truck so building it wouldn't help. It's all aluminum so pushing water becomes a reality. Pulling the block out to just to pistons would be idiotic. This is also again where a modern ECU is huge. Unlimited control of everything so I can run closer to the edge and still have a safety margin. Stock block can easily support getting into the 10's.

Surround makes pretty good packing material actually.