///M5

There is no 80d yet, so the 70d is not priced logically for a used purchase. Great camera though and worth it new WHEN it was new. I've had mine for nearly 2 years and paid less than what they go for new now and not much different from the used price. Camera gear that is 1 yr old doesn't depreciate (unless it is a kit piece). Need to source some a few years back. $453 is a bit steep only because you are paying for a new 1.4 and a used 40d. Hard to find used 1.4 though as most have a really hard time upgrading to the 1.2

I know you don't want to pay $2000 for a 70-200, but fuck it just don't get something that shoots long. You'll find that the Nikkor you are looking at can't focus on subjects that are moving a long ways away anyways rendering it functionally useless. It'll also stink at portraits since the F/4 isn't enough for bokeh worth a damn which was one of your first targets. Add to that the 18-55 just won't work inside without a flash (and a flash adds $200+) you'll really not like using it at all. You will NOT have those problems on a mirrorless....or with real glass.

Going from F/4 to F/1.4 with the same light at the same iso you need to change your shutter speed from 1/60 to 1/500. It is a MONSTER difference. Another way to say that is going from F/1.4 to F/4 in ISO you would have to go from ISO 100 to ISO 800 or more importantly ISO 1000 to ISO 8000. If you ever need 8000 for anything you should stop, grab a tripod or of course better glass. A body buys you Focus first and foremost, after that ISO performance. The rest are just settings they all have. Conveniently glass buys you more in that you can greatly improve the focus (it takes light) and remove the necessity for having low ISO noise.

If you ask around you can probably convince someone to GIVE you a kit lens. They are seriously pointless.

Again, the body is the LEAST important thing. Shop glass, not bodies. If you are truly stuck in the budget domain, that setup will absolutely get MURDERED by a mirrorless for the same dough. Not even in the same ball park.

No way. Both those lenses are throw aways and somewhat useless (ie, $100 used at best). I would also MUCH rather have someone elses used 3 yr old camera than a refurb. Basically means you are paying nearly $500 for a refurb body that you can get on sale for about that. Terrible deal IMO.

Had a couple martini's with my neighbor a couple nights back. That pucking worked.

If I had that money to burn I'd be a happy guy

You pulling a Favre?

Crazy to see a QB from my home town get drafted.

Other than that you should lay out your real budget and then find lenses that fit in it and see what body you are left with. Decide if that is okay feature wise and bam.

I will also restate the mirrorless. If you won't buy serious glass the only reason to buy a DSLR is the viewfinder. If you've never used one though you won't miss it.

A 40D with a 70-200 will take some SIC pictures

There are also good Sigma & Tamron primes, but they tend to be more money. For more reach, Canon does have a great 135 f/2 but really once in that range I'd actually grab the zoom. The 70-200 they have is without compare and definitely one of the strongest reasons to own a Canon.

Yes. 28mm 2.8 is $150, 50mm 1.4 is $330, 85mm 1.8 is $350 -> all new. Those are all harder to source used, but it does happen. I said Mirrorless on your end because of the children comment. You probably want integrated video as well...of course, that can come as an upgrade later.

$500 is mirrorless range. Point and shoot cameras are pretty much useless.

There are some really good Tamron lenses, but image quality and super zoom is an oxymoron.

Nice work and attention to detail.

It is terrible for learning though. High ass Fstop and Zoom. Neither help you figure out the camera...

My parents also fell in that trap and have a 28-300 which is at my house if you wanted to try it out.

Also, don't succumb to thinking something like the Tamron 18-270 is a good idea. It blows kit lenses out of the water, but sucks donkey dick. And yes, I own one. Thought it was a great idea initially.

If you go shoot a ton of shots and become comfortable, then when you compare brands you will get a much better feeling.....but again, compare LENSES not bodies.

If you still want to save money and are unsure you can buy used from National Camera or BH Photo. Both will stand behind the used purchase as well and you should be able to trust their condition statements. The savings won't be as good, but it is akin to buying new in the comfort zone spectra.

Anything with a lower fstop of higher than 2.8 is also not so interesting.

ALL kit lenses are garbage. Don't even consider a kit. Serious waste of budget.