altoncustomtech

Well, another quick update I just gotta share. I got a chance to play with the tuning on the unit some more today. I went in and played with the EQ for a bit, fine tuning it to trying to get things perfect. The only issue I had on some songs was that they sounded a little flat in the upper midrange, lower treble areas. I could get it close but never quite got rid of it without bringing that bad harshness back so I had an idea to play with the phasing on the components again like I did with the Kenwood. Having the time alignment on the Clarion seemed to change the interaction between the speakers. If I turned off the time alignment it went back to sounding like it did with the Kenwood, light and airy but low on height and narrower. So I decided to start from scratch and went and put all the speakers back in phase with each other and voila, perfect. The flat sound was gone and the light airy sound was back but with the stage and image back up on top of the dash and nice and wide open when I put the time alignment back where I had it. From there I made some more adjustments to the Q of a couple of bands and played with the gains/cuts for a bit until things were just right and the original harshness I had experienced was gone. I never imagined I could get these results with such a modest lineup of equipment and little money spent. The components are doing such a good job with the midbass it's just completely thrilling to play the songs that really lend themselves to it. Everything else is just as improved though and while listening to "Alabama Shakes - Hold On", "The Black Keys - Gold on the Ceiling", "Rhianna - Stay", and "Billy Joel - Piano Man" I got the attention of some teenagers out playing some basketball next to my buddies house. They were amazed that all I had playing was the components and that it sounded so good and clear. I really got them smiling when I had them take turns sitting in the drivers seat while we played a host of other songs including several tracks on a couple of Trans-Siberian Orchestra CD's. They left seemingly impressed and talking about what they were gonna do to their own cars. One in particular is gonna come by this weekend to have me look at what he's got and give some recommendations.

A connection doesn't necessarily have to be loose to have high resistance. A light film of oil, polish to make it shine, or anything like that which is put on the surface of the fuse itself, the ring terminal, etc. could cause high resistance which would cause heat. For years I've always taken some kind of sand paper, hardware cloth, scotch brite type pad/wheel, something to the surface of EVERY connection from the battery to the amp terminal to prevent problems like this. You'd be very surprised how often you find that something has a protective coating of some kind on it that would have caused a problem at some point in the future.

From the measurements I've seen they don't make a spectacular widebander. Great midrange, but not a great WB on the top end. Many people use them as WB though and are happy, so I guess it's all relative. WB aren't my forte, honestly.....I'm not as well read or experienced with their relative performance. Sean would probably be able to give suggestions much quicker than myself. I'd need to spend some time researching. I've read every time a thread comes up about using a fullrange/widebander about how those 3" (average size) full range speakers don't do super well on the top end or get real loud. I've used to have the Logitech Z-560 4.1 speaker set (still have all the speakers too, amp blew on it) and now I have the Z-5500's on my computer. Both sets use 3" full range speakers (look just like several of the TB speakers) for the highs and quite honestly except maybe for the very highest frequencies I don't notice an issue with the range. Same on the output, the damn things will get almost stupid loud. Now, I'm sure they're not doing anything super special with these things, not at their price point, so either my tastes for high frequency range and output are a fair bit off center in comparison to you guys and your experience, or I've simply and straight up never experienced what really great speakers sound like and the output big power subs can do. I'm sure the answer is a little bit of both, but in my experience with these sets it's hard for me to imagine needing any more output or having any real issues with the upper range response. I guess I just have a hard time understanding where the comments come from.

Dude, you're 33 and have four kids too? Where the hell you hiding at in this damn boat? Sounds like we're in the same one! LOL

That's because MAX power ratings are useless and more often than not full out marketing hype and lies. MAX power is useless because there's no set limit for subs and speakers. Depending on the application and installation that number could be considerably higher or barely higher than the RMS rating. Forget about MAX power ratings and concentrate on a quality installation.

i thought the subsonic filter is filtering the output section, am i wrong? ive seen fi subs hooked to wall sockets for 7 minutes before they smoked on youtube i didnt think brz had it in em 2 do that kind of output without blowing up this thread makes me wanna get a colossus 3200 watts bridged and try 2 burp a 10k watt square wave too bad the colossus is banned if he sends the sub in and fi says it was factory error.... glazed donut shipped 44123 please, thanks Not the filtering he was talking about. There is filtering on the output terminals of the amplifiers to remove noise and other unwanted signal impurities created in the amplifier during operation. Can not compare hooking up a sub to a wall socket either. It could only be getting a couple hundred watts from the wall socket. ^^ Exactly. I believe the filtering Nick was talking about is between the power supply section of the amp and the output section. Take my explanation with a grain of salt, I know just enough about this stuff to be REALLY dangerous, lol. From everything I've read on the issue and what I already know about amps, AC and DC circuits, and radio equipment this is a very basic, hopefully thorough enough to understand, and remotely accurate enough description of what really happens to a sub when the tinsels fry like that. The power supply has to convert your cars DC input into an AC signal to run it through the transformers to step the voltage up to a level that will be suitable to output whatever wattage the amp is being built for. The output from that transformer is supposed to be rectified and filtered back to DC for the output stage. Some of the cheaper amp manufacturers are getting by with less filtering which results in a noisy DC voltage. It's still technically DC but it's got high frequency (we're talking 20khz and up generally) noise riding on it. That noise makes it's way to the sub out of the amp and at those high frequencies coupled with thousands of watts of power and the fact the tinsels leads are such a short distance apart it becomes something like a very high power low frequency radio signal and as Nick said microwaves the immediate surroundings. I think I've even read where some amps have been found with basically no real rectification or filtering after the power supply and used the output section simply as a high speed gate with a design in that the inductance of the output coils in the amp would filter out the high frequencies. Couple all that with clipping and other issues and you get burnt tinsels, spiders and possibly even fire.

At this point, I'm not going to say one way or the other. With my job it's just too damn hard to predict what will be going on that far in advance because if something drastic enough happens it won't matter if I've setup to have the time off or not I'll have to be there to work. I really would love to make it this year though, especially with a finished build in the Jimmy. Here's to high hopes!!

That's just cool. I'm sure theres nothing like seeing stuff that brings back those kinds of memories. There's many times I imagine what all else I may have learned already if I'd found this forum sooner. This is a good opportunity to thank you and Aaron again for all the hard work you guys do to keep this place up and running for us all, and for going through the cost, trouble, and headaches that accompany providing such awesome subs. The forum and the lineup have grown drastically just in the years I've been a member and I can't wait to see what the future will bring. Keep up the great work guys, it definitely doesn't go unappreciated. Oh, I still have a few of those flyers too, lol.

Awesome vid chop! Looks like the Cutlass is kicking ass! It looked sweet as hell rolling up to the camera too. That's a beautiful ride.

LOL, absolutely!!!!! We'll call it a cruise and tune!

You want specifics? To start with there's too many speakers for your front stage and the placements are far from ideal for good staging or imaging. The problem with so many drivers is that it causes issues with cancellations, reflections, and the multiple sources blow away any part of the stage or image being correct right to bits. The next problem is that the 5" and 6x9" speakers are only screwed to the door card. It's flimsy and they're likely not sealed good which can cause cancellation issues from the back wave of the speakers meeting the front wave. The flimsiness of the door card itself will rob bass and midbass output as well, muddy up the midrange and cause distortion. The subs are still not in an optimal enclosure from what I can recall from discussions about that enclosure. That's how I see and understand it from my basic and limited knowledge. The good things are that you have better than average equipment for a beginner (IMO) and you seem to have taken enough care on the installation that everything is safely mounted and fused. You've got the building blocks to make a pretty decent build for a beginner. At least, that's how I see it, I'm sure others have differing opinions.

The basic rule (and I really HATE using the word RULE) for doing a split center port like that is the port length plus half the width on each split and the splits are 1/2 the actual port width. So say the port length is supposed to be 20" long and the port width is 4". The total port length when you get then the end of the port in each chamber should be 22". You're showing 16.75" on the first port wall, plus 1.25" (as it does look like your splits are 1/2" the 5" total port width), plus 2.5" from the center of the center part of the port, plus the 6 1/32" of the split port length equals 26 19/32" total length. Your port length according to the Torres calc should be 26.75, so the length you have is fine for a standard slot port, but it needs another 2.5" to be closer to right for the split center port. Other than that your drawings are great, you've done really good on them. The rest of the calculations are looking alright from what I can quickly figure. It will take me a fair bit more time to break everything completely down to check the numbers down the the level to know that the volumes are right on and things.

Thanks brother! It's nice to be able post an update!! LOL You're welcome dude. At it's price point it's worth getting to play around with IMO. I never thought it would make the difference it has so far in my Jimmy. I had hoped it could help the 3k problem and figured it would help some with staging and imaging, but with the crossover adjustability and the EQ settings I was able to dial the bass/midbass response in so well that it is giving me more and cleaner midbass output even with negative gains on the low frequency EQ points I set. I was listening to "Cake - Going the Distance" and "Audioslave - Show Me How to Live" on the way to work this morning and could feel every drum beat and bass guitar riff (right word?) and cleaner than with the Kenwood at that. Not sure how that really works with just a HU change, but I'm not complaining, lol. Chop, I think you could definitely make good use of a unit like this. The EQ adjustments alone could be utilized to a persons gains in SPL use as well as SQ. The good part about that is it has three memory slots you can get things set for, then recall them. For competing it would be useful to find the EQ, crossover and DTA settings that allowed for the best SPL numbers and save them in one slot, then the best settings for daily listening and just recall whichever settings you need for whatever the situation calls for all in about 3 or 4 button presses. The settings really are pretty easy to navigate through and after about 10 or 15 minutes of playing with it you'd have it down. Before I installed it in the Jimmy I had a total of about 20 minutes playing with the settings on the unit weeks ago when I posted the thread about getting it and haven't touched it until I went to install it this weekend. I had forgot the book at work and was still able to run through all the settings and do all that without it, and my memory is HORRIBLE. Regardless, I don't see you having any problems figuring out how to play with it and I can see it being fairly useful for both competing and daily ground pounding.

I've not had a chance to do all the numbers yet, but just from what I see on the intended port length and the measurements you have on the drawing the port is too short. Here after a few I can get my laptop out and plug thru the numbers to verify everything else.

Another teeny tiny update. I got the Clarion CZ702 installed in the truck over the weekend and spent awhile tweaking and tuning it. I have to say first off, I'll never buy another unit again and/or build an installation for myself that doesn't have a complete and comprehensive set of controls such as is found in the Clarion. Be it a HU like the Clarion or a seperate DSP like the miniDSP, MS-8, or whatever all else is out there, it's going to have processing power. With the simple controls of the Kenwood I was able to get quite satisfactory results. I did have a little issue in the 3khz region in which it would almost sound as though the music would screech at high output around that frequency. I'm sure it's a limitation in the speaker and passive crossover design along with installation effects, but it was really only noticeable on certain songs. I had very adequate midbass response and was generally able to get it plenty loud enough for my tastes with very little or no distortion at all with the capability of feeling the midbass in my chest and body on a few songs. I am proud to say, with all the tweaking and tuning I've done so far with the Clarion that I was able to get even better midbass response with less distortion and I've gotten rid of that annoying anomaly in the 3khz region. I can feel the midbass in almost every song I listen to now, not to mention the sound stage is twice as wide and up on top of the dash like it should be after making the time alignment adjustments. Having AT LEAST this kind of processing power should be an absolute requirement for every HU from every manufacturer, lol. I also love the fact that every adjustment happens on the fly. With the Kenwood's I have, if you make a crossover adjustment or change the frequency or Q on the PEQ, or even changing the distance of the DTA (on my KDC-X99 in the van) the sound cuts out for a split second. I assume it does that so the software in the HU can make the adjustment to the signal. On the Clarion it's instant, no pause or cut in the sound at all. I love that because I can hear the slight differences the adjustment makes and hear it really well by switching back and forth a few times to tell if I'm on the right track or not. All in all the HU really kicks ass and I'm likely to get another couple of them just to have on hand! I'm looking forward to trying an active setup with it sometime. The ONLY issue I have found with the unit was one that was mentioned on a few reviews I found on it is that when there's no music playing through the unit there's just a TINY bit of background static type noise. It just is noticeable when there's no music playing and not noticeable at all when it is. If you turn the volume all the way to 0 it goes away, but it doesn't get any louder at all when turned all the way up to 40. It's kind of odd and I think it's a side affect of the DSP and it's software that's built into the unit. I can definitely say if you've looked at the unit with interest but wasn't sure, don't be afraid it has VERY solid features and all the adjustability and how easy it is to adjust is simply amazing to me. On a side note the Bluetooth works great and the dual control for the iPod/iPhone is a kick ass bonus as well. I haven't had a chance to play with the Pandora app much yet but so far it's equally easy and great to use. Here's a before picture of the Kenwood KDC-X492 coming out: Here's an after pic of the Clarion CZ702 installed and on:

You would be surprised how strong the midbass can be from a 6.5" or 7" driver that's installed properly. The 6.5" Bravox mids in my component sets can dole out enough midbass to literally feel the impact in my chest and body all while keeping their composure in the upper bass and midrange frequencies. It's the first time for me to have a 6.5" do that though and it gets grins from everyone I show it off to as well. Obviously it's not the same kind of impact one could expect from a larger diameter driver, but I figure for something that size to be felt it must be more in the installation than the driver itself. I like the idea of doing a good 8" or 10" midbass coupled with a widebander. jroadtatts did just that in his Honda, originally with a pair of 10" Aura woofers and 3" Fostex fullrangers then upgraded the 10's to 12's, so it can be done. Although at this point, I think as long as you paid good close attention to detail with the installation you can and will be impressed with what a 6.5/7" woofer could do for you.

Hey Alton thanks again for the response I just went out there and measured and here they are: 4' max length 4'2" max width 3'4" max height I'm still trying to figure out how I missed this update, lol. Do you have a preference on orientation? Sub up, port back or subs and port rear, etc?

I think that's definitely a good way to look at it. Don't discount trying polyfil either. Providing better low end response is exactly what a ported enclosure does. It's louder because that's response the sealed cannot provide. You may be able to make a little of that up with the polyfil if the ported enclosures don't work out.

Being that they're completely free it wouldn't hurt to try I suppose, but without being able to get more space I just don't see how you can expect to really get any more output from the ported over the sealed. You're right, everyone's telling you to go that route because in most cases a ported enclosure is louder than a sealed, but that's also assuming the ported enclosure can be built at least close to optimum specifications. This is a definite case in which optimum is no where near where it's going to end up.

A piece on top of what, the back of the port? That would only add to the port length, not the port area. If that box indeed acted like a leaky sealed enclosure then no, it would not be better than the sealed enclosures you're using now. The port in a ported enclosure will not function like a port if it is too small and can cause a host of issues when too large. They generally have to get to the point of ridiculously large to reach that point and more often than not fitting the required length becomes the issue before the too large area does. Do you have any, or tried putting any polyfil in the sealed enclosures you're currently using? That can help trick or fool (for lack of better words ATM) the subs into thinking they're in larger enclosures. That could help get you a little on the bottom end with your current setup, although you shouldn't expect miracles either.

Right off the bat I can tell you the port size is not going to work. There's not enough port area and a 25:1 port ratio is going to cause problems as well. It will act more like a leaky sealed box than it will a ported enclosure. Others may have their own thoughts, but that's what I'm seeing when I look at it.

I have to admit, the doors scare me. That is if you think that really sounds any good. I do agree though, there's not a single one of us who really had a clue what we were doing when we first started out. I had about twice the clue that most of my friends my age had because of a few of my neighbors who did some competing and such, but a lot of what I was taught then and learned along the way was wrong as I later found out. At least the OP isn't claiming to have 10 years of car audio or competition experience or anything like that. In most of the conversations I've had with him he's pretty quick to admit he doesn't know a great deal and seems willing to at least hear what we have to say. Time will tell whether or not he catches on and follows the advice we give him. I don't know about anyone else but until such time as the situation warrants not spending my time and effort to help I will continue to do so in hopes that he gets headed in the right direction. Much like is done with so many others, including myself. Jigsaw to the doors, really? Yikes, I was just never that brave, lol. I'm gonna have to study those pictures a little closer.

He's lost in blissful ignorance. Hopefully he'll wake up and smell the burning coils eventually. It's sad but there's actually a lot of people out there just like him.

Almost done? What exactly does that mean? The enclosure is complete, are the subs are mounted in it, have you put any power on them yet, are you still getting things wired and installed, I mean what does it really mean????!!!!??? LOL Can't wait to see this done dude.

From the information I'm coming up with it looks like the 2 x 175wrms @ 4 ohms and 2 x 260wrms @ 2 ohms is correct and for the most part believable, at least much more so than the 1,000 watts x 2 and 2,000 watts x 1 bridged. I've also found most descriptions to include mentioning 60 amps of fusing, which by the look of the few pictures I can find would be a pair of 30 amp fuses. Your buddy is going to have to come to grips with reality and understand that he's not running at any form of optimal. He needs to build a good ported enclosure for his Type R and find a good amp that will give it in the neighborhood of it's rated RMS power. He'll be blown away by doing those two things and it shouldn't cost him a great deal by finding a decent used amp or a fair new one like a Hifonics or Audiopipe at about 1000 or 1200wrms rating to get the right power at 2 ohms.