altoncustomtech

to the forum!

Looks like it's really starting to come together. Can't wait to see it in action!

lol, and welcome to the wonderful world of car audio compromise. I've personally never owned a vehicle that sealed good enough in the first place for that to happen, but technically yes that's what some of that is for. It allows air to be displaced from the cabin to the trunk or vise versa to facilitate easier closing of the doors, trunk lid, etc., or so I've read. Personally I'd seal the ever loving hell out of it and then if closing things was any sort of problem. If it was then I would systematically start with the smallest holes first, one at a time, and modify the seal so that it can pass some air, the smaller amount the better. Then recheck how everything closes and if need be do another until things closed better without degrading the sound any more than necessary. I didn't bother going too crazy sealing the trunk/rear deck of the Olds because, well, it's a 22 year old car. It's just not worth putting that much work into it. Because I chose not to make a great seal the bass below about 45hz and somewhere in the midbass region (from a little testing and guesstimation between 150-200hz) suffers. Below 45hz is no big deal, I keep it high pass crossed at 50hz anyway because I don't expect these little 8's to have a great amount of authority down deep in an IB configuration. But the dip in the midbass region hurts it a little. Not enough to make it obnoxiously annoying or to go through a great deal more work and money to improve it but I know it's there and what's causing it. It's a compromise I'm comfortable making. Everything we do in the hobby has pros and cons and we must decide what compromises we can live with and which ones we can't.

Sounds like you pretty well have it figured out to me. Everything you mentioned is correct and necessary to make a go of using an IB sub setup. Don't skip over the small holes though. Covering the big ones like the 6x9 holes is definitely very important but even the small ones will degrade performance if they're not covered as well. If you were really wanting an SSA sub I think the closest one to fit the bill for you is the GCON. Fi has a line called the IB3's that are purposely built for IB use and they come in a 15" size.

It's been awhile back but there was a guy that got on here and said pretty much exactly that (minus the tape deck and AC current) because his friends told him it was how he got maximum loudness out of it. He was on here asking why it all went up in smoke (with flames even IIRC). These kinds of things happen all the time, because some friend of a cousin's best buddy said he's been doing this stuff for years and has always done it this way. Or because some high school kid's hormones got the best of him, or his ego got hurt, and he thinks his system should be louder than his buddies system so he cranks everything up. Or someone with no prior experience is trying to do his install with no help but from people on some forum online who have NO business telling anyone how to set things up (NOT this forum, but I can name a few others lol). Stuff like that has been the norm in the hobby for a very long time, lol. People do some scary shit with their stuff. I was talking to another member on here not long ago who thought he had his gains and such set right. He had just gotten a brand new, very nice subwoofer to upgrade from the one he had before and it was getting hot. Hotter than he was comfortable with and after some reading and discussion he decided to try resetting his gains again. It's probably a very good thing he did as afterward his gain was set lower, he had just as much output, but the sub was no longer getting hot. He was clipping the signal out of the amp going to the sub so hard it was going to burn it up. My point is, go over everything again with a fine tooth comb. People have ran 2,000 watts to a 500 watt rated sub and it lasted for years and guys have blown 2,000 watt rated subs with 500 watts. It doesn't matter what you have if you do it wrong long or hard enough something will give. Slow down and figure out what happened to cause this sub to blow before it happens to the new one.

Will do. Thanks! Do you suggest using a familiar song or test tones when setting gains by ear? I've read it's best to use tones since its very easy to hear distortion. As far as clipping on my sub goes, I can't hear distortion when the clipping indicator comes on, it just sounds louder. I've heard the indicators are pretty accurate though, because they measure the rail voltage in the amp or something along those lines. clipping is fine, its just distortion. distortion is only a problem when its audible. so the clipping light doesn't convey to the user anything significant. the light is just a gimmick. use a variety of songs. basically you're just trying to get close to some value that maximizes the output. so for songs that are recorded at a lower level you can increase the volume at the hu and match the output to songs recorded at a higher level. setting the gain is never foolproof, you should always be listen for distortion and speaker stress. +1 to you, probably the best way I've seen that said in awhile. Also, as Lithium pointed out if the box is 1 cu.ft. before you put the sub in it then the volume is all the way down at the low end for the sub. If you do as he said, turn the sub around in the box and add some polyfil I think you'll be very surprised at how much better it sounds and performs.

If you're on that tight of a budget look into the AD244 alternator upgrade. You can find several places on the internet that have all the info on it. The AD244 is a factory alt that is the base for most all large case GM high output alternators. It bolts straight in place on the 4.3's with no modifications and can usually be found for about $50 used at most junk yards. It's a great budget option when you don't have $350+ for an HO alt.

to the forum! I have no experience with the Cruze's but I do have some experience with what you're looking to do. As Sean (W140) mentioned you'll really want larger drivers (i.e. more cone area) when doing a setup like that. I just happen to have recently done something very similar with a pair of 8" Dayton woofers in my Olds 88. While the output is quite fair considering the drivers and power being used many people will find it lacking. If you're truly not after a ton of output nothing smaller than 10's and 12's would be be the best route to go. While something bigger like 15's would be best for output, that car is small enough that fitting them side by side behind the back seat might prove to be a problem. The most important things to remember if you want to do an IB setup is having a solid structure and sealing. With an IB setup everything, and I mean everything where the subs mount and around that point will need to be braced up so that it's solid. When the speaker cone moves the motor structure and frame try to move the opposite direction. It's Newton's third law of motion, "For every action there's an equal and opposite reaction." If the structure the speaker is mounted to moves then some of the force that should have been transferred to the cone is lost which results in a loss of output, rattles, non-linear response, and all sorts of things that are unwanted in audio. The larger and more powerful the speaker the stronger that structure needs to be, there's more force involved. Without an enclosure what the speaker mounts to and everything around is subject to movement and lets face it with today's cars there's just not a lot of really solid structure in the first place anymore. The more you do to make it strong and unmovable the better off you'll be. The second point is with sealing the back wave of the speaker from the front one. When you play a speaker free air you can't hardly hear it (especially lower frequencies) because the sound wave from the front of the speaker and the sound wave from the back of the speaker are opposites. When they meet they cancel out and you don't hear much. Without an enclosure in an IB environment it's paramount to have every hole where any sound waves can leak from the trunk, or behind the drivers, sealed so that it can't reach the front side. Sound deadening and sealing with many different kinds of materials will be absolutely necessary to prevent as much of this as possible.

Ah, now that makes much more sense, lol.

Shipping out today? You obviously didn't read everything. It clearly states up to 21 business days build time, that's about a month of waiting if it takes the full 21 business days. Unless you get really lucky and one just happens to be sitting on the shelf from a cancelled order or something. Plans for the enclosure sound spot on though. You can be working on building that while you're waiting for the recone.

Not for long.

The sub being non functioning is a different story. I speak from about four years of experience with a pair of 12" Q's that they're the best subs I've used to date. I think my 10" XCON will be right in there with them but I've not had enough listening time with it to make that comparison/opinion yet.

I'll take a stab at these, lol. 1. Fusing is important no matter what you're dealing with. I've never used any external fusing on the remote lead, but that's not saying it isn't a good idea. 2. I can't see where it would make any difference where the hell the LOC was installed. Too simple of a device for it to give a damn IMO. I would also never use one so that's a factor in my response. 3. Why in god's name would anyone care whether or not they were getting the "FULL" signal out of the HU or not. Set the EQ, crossovers, etc. to what sounds the best to you and then set the gains accordingly. I don't care if you have a HU that is capable of outputting a 12V signal. Dynamics in the music alone will not ever allow you to use it all 100% of the time so why would it matter? 4. Never seen spade terminals? You mean as in never used them right? There would be absolutely no advantage to using them on an amp that has set screw terminals. Anything at all on the ends of the wires would only be a hassle on those kinds of connections. Now, if a person is worried about shorting stuff with stray strands of wire one of two things come to mind. First would be to make sure you do a good clean job of inserting the wire so that there are no stray strands (seems like a no brainer to me). Second would be to tin the ends of the wire with solder. That's just my .02 woth.

I agree. You say you don't have any air leaks in the enclosure but the problems you're describing are classic leaking box issues. Push in on the cone of the sub and hold it in place for several seconds, it should have a bit of resistance to moving. Now when you remove your hand the sub should move fairly slowly back out to it's rest position. If it goes back quickly but doesn't follow your hand you're probably okay but if it doesn't go slowly at all and follows your hand straight back then you're enclosure isn't as well sealed as it should be. This isn't super scientific nor is it completely definitive, but it can give you a place to start. Even if the enclosure isn't leaking there's still something very suspect going on here. These subs are designed to be very accurate with quick response. Aaron's analogy in my signature is a great explanation of it. The enclosure is EVERYTHING to how a sub performs.

I agree with everything Lithium said. OP you're continuing to blame all the issues on the equipment and throw money at new despite what everyone said in your first threads on the subject and now this one. While the Q's are definitely great subs I think you need to focus a great deal more on the installation of everything else before you ditch the SP4.

^^^ I definitely agree that you need to look more into the front stage and the midbass setup than at the sub. The majority of everything that you hear from a drum set rests in the midbass region. Sure, there's plenty of bass there but it lies mostly in the harmonics and the deeper bass notes overlap the bass and midbass regions. The subwoofers can and should help with this but the entire duty shouldn't rest solely on them.

It's been awhile since I've been to a good competition or show. Been to a few small ones in recent years but they're generally kinda lame. I never go to compete, only to have a good time and enjoy the setups, vehicles and stuff. Every time in the last few years that Slamology got close something came up with work and I couldn't go, so I exactly what kind of boat you're in there, lol.

smart guy forsure he has helped me a ton over the past year Thanks guys, I really appreciate it.

Awesome. I'm definitely going to try real hard to make it to Slamology this year. Hopefully if I can finally make it I'll see you guys there.

I'd love to check it out, but I'm a lot farther away than you realize. I'm practically on the Indiana/Illinois border. There's a good chance the sub being in such close proximity played a part in it. But you're right, everyone has their own preferences and listening habits. I stand by the thinking that if it sounds good to you then that's what counts. So if it doesn't do what it takes to get it sounding good and that's what it sounds like you're doing to me. Thanks for explaining it all though, it helps with understanding the thought process behind your decision and comments.

I have the same amp and in the book it shows where .2v is which is all the way to the right, that with telling him to back off a bit i'm sure he will be safe, plus I have called maxxsonics on this very issue a couple times : )I'm not trying to get into any great debate, but what you are recommending would cause more than one problem. If his head unit was rated for 2.5v where does the .2v setting come from? Not that head unit ratings are great to go by anyway. I see what you mean I recommend that the OP call Maxxsonics and get their advice on where he should begin setting the gain as did I to begin with. Even they can't tell him exactly where it should be set. There's too many variables to the process.

I wouldn't suggest having him set his gain knob to any one position. Honestly there's no way to know exactly where the gain knob needs set without being there working on his specific setup. Personally I set all my gains by ear, the OP should probably at least look at using the DMM method as I am sure he probably doesn't have the ear (just yet) to notice when the subs start to distort or show signs of stress. I hate suggesting that method as it's not the most accurate either, but it's nowhere near as inaccurate as suggesting a single position on the knob.

Ideally you would model the driver in your desired enclosure before purchasing one to verify the response meets your needs.However when initially looking for drivers to select a good staring point is to calculate the driver's Efficiency Bandwidth Product (EBP). EBP = Fs/Qes If the EBP is 50 or less it is best suited for a sealed enclosure. Between 50 to 90 or 100 the driver will work reasonably well in either ported or sealed. Above 90 to 100 the driver would work best ported. So as you can see it isn't ONLY about Qts, you have to take Q in relation to Fs to determine what type of enclosure the driver is most suited towards. Beat me to it, lol.

No problem man, I'm glad to help. So is everyone else, we're a fairly tight family on here, even the guys who don't see eye to eye. Just remember to calm down, take your time and have patience. Another thing to consider, and this has been the case for most all of us, is to forget almost everything you THINK you know about car audio. As I found out as well, what most of us are taught and learn over the years has not been accurate information. As long as you're willing to be open to understanding that and listen there's more accurate information on this forum and it's members than anywhere else on the web.

Four hours???!!!???!!! You're in Indianapolis for Christ's sake. There's quite a few members on here that live in and around Indianapolis that I'm sure would be MORE than willing to help you with cutting and building an enclosure. Hell, for that matter, I'm half that far away (roughly 2-2.5 hrs) and would be glad to help with this kind of stuff. As for whether or not it's what you want or not you'd need to hear what the two different kinds of setups sound like. That I'm afraid makes me about the only person that can help you with that unless there's someone else you know who's got a PR setup. I was thinking doing a C pillar wall with all those 18's would look pretty bad ass and fool the hell out of people like my 10's are doing. They think they're all real subs until they look through the plexi windows, then the look on their face is priceless, lol.