lyons238

Thank you man I appreciate that. And I can get down with everything you said. I appreciate the supportive words and honesty.Once I get some modeling happening I'll take some screenshots and you can give me your opinion on which box would be best for me. and maybe I can get some links or methods to figure out the effects of a sedan listening environment? This way I'll have some actual data for some actual advice Edit: it says *help files cannot be found* any idea where those files are lol? Not going to happen. All you can expect is a gain in output in the lower bandwidth, but the exact effect on response is going to vary from one vehicle and installation to another. E.g. If I throw a box in my car and run a sweep from 20 - 80hz and record the dB level at each frequency, then do the same outside the car, and subtract the spectra than I'd end up with the cabin's effect on response, but it couldn't be applied to another vehicle. If you did the above for a bunch of different vehicles than you might find some general trend, but it'll likely amount to my original advice: gain in output on bottom end. ok fair enough, thanks for clearing that up. since you are somewhat familiar with cars i do have a question. would it be a bad idea to cut a 6" hole in the sheet metal thats underneath the rear deck? i wasn't sure if this sheet metal acted as a torsion brace sort of like an upper rear strut brace or a brace if hit from the side. hopefully someone can clear that up for me.

I have a 12" fi Q that is fully loaded, except there is no extra spider option, and no high qts option. I also have a Sundown SCV-2000d, big 3, XS Power d3400, and an XS Power XP950 in the trunk for power. I figure after all losses/drops I should be getting around 1700w rms of clean power to the sub. For mide I have 2x 6.5" Sundown Neo Pro V2's and some Image Dynamics CTX65SC's for components up front. Hopefully having some dedicated mid bass drivers will work well with a bandpass enclosure, so that I can tune that to hit the low notes and roll off right into where the Neo Pro's will take over. Lastly, It is being installed in a 2013 Subaru WRX. After some deliberation I think I have landed on a 4th order bandpass enclosure that is vented into the car cabin through the rear deck to maximize SPL, while retaining some good SQ in my car. However I have some questions before I move forward. 1. Will a 4th order bandpass enclosure that is vented through through the rear deck provide more SPL than a simple ported enclosure with the rear seats blocking? Does a 4th order bandpass enclosure provide more SPL without factoring in the loss from the rear seats? 2. What ratio should I use for this sub? I was thinking 2:1. 1.15 net cuft sealed : 2.3 net cuft ported. This is within the manufacturers recommended sealed/ported volume. With a bandpass box, are the manufacturer's recommended volume specs the way to go? 3. What should I tune it to? Also, what is the roll off amount per octave with a 4th order bandpass? Does volume, port area, etc affect this? I would like for this setup to be somewhat SQ oriented but to also maximize SPL with my given gear. I like to get low 25-30hz but also want it to be able to hit the higher notes. 4. Will a 6" aero port be effective in this application? How much port area per cuft is recommended for a bandpass enclosure, is it the normal 12-16 sqin/cuft or is it more like 14-20 sq in/cuft? I believe a 6" aeroport has 28.26 sqin of port area per cuft. Is that enough port area? It comes out to only 12.3 sq in per cuft, but shouldn't that be enough considering its an aeroport, or should I find a way to make an 8" aeroport? Am I calculating that correctly? Is length not considered when determining port area? 5. How do I calculate the port displacement to get the proper net volume of the ported chamber? In order to vent through the rear deck the aero port will stick out of the box. In order to calculate tuning and net volume, how would I figure out the volume of just the port that is inside the box, including the flare? Also, wouldn't that be contradicting because in order to figure out port length and tuning I need to know the amount of volume for that chamber, but I won't know that until I figure out the port area that is inside the box? 6. Will the non qts fi Q be best fit for this enclosure or is the qts option better? 7. Should I mount the sub with the basket in the ported chamber to reduce heat/coil issues? Also, would I need to reverse the wiring when mounting like this or is that only needed when your running multiple subs mounted opposite ways in the same sealed enclosure? 8. Will 1700w rms be too much? Does a 4th order bandpass reduce power handling or will it be similar to a ported enclosure? Any help is greatly appreciated as I want to make sure that I get this enclosure perfect for my application. Thanks!

Thank you man I appreciate that. And I can get down with everything you said. I appreciate the supportive words and honesty.Once I get some modeling happening I'll take some screenshots and you can give me your opinion on which box would be best for me. and maybe I can get some links or methods to figure out the effects of a sedan listening environment? This way I'll have some actual data for some actual advice Edit: it says *help files cannot be found* any idea where those files are lol?

I tried winisd but I can't get t to work there's a consistency errors and I tried to follow m5's advice to no avail. That's why I offered to pay for a design. Honestly m5 don't post here anymore. You just come off as a prick. I'll get everything sorted like I always do I'm more than capable. If I can teach myself how to produce music in Logic Pro and other daws I can teach myself to make a good bandpass 4th order. This is my first ever look into bandpass boxes so get off your high horse. @shh Thanks man I'll try winisd again but like I said it keeps giving me a consistency check error and I can't get around t no matter how I enter the numbers. Maybe j should try and get my hands on bbp?

1) I understood very well. Just find it idiotic to put part of the front stage in the rear. Matters are made worse when you are trying to have an itty bitty mid play what a sub could in a MUCH easier fashion.2) The Neo Pro's are not better at midbass than "some other" mids. They suck at it in fact. Whomever confused you on that one knows nothing about audio or is selling the product or worse both. 3) Blend them in, good pucking luck. Having point sources all over a car makes blending SUPER hard and you are going to need serious patience and processing power to do so. I'd bet cash there is no way you will get it to work. In general, you are forgetting the KISS principle and the net result will be a system that is "fancier" and sounds WAY worse because of it. Even if that is the case it won't be a huge deal to replace the rear speakers with some IDs if need be. That's not a bf concern to me. I'm really more concerned with the sub enclosure. And whether or not I can get a 4th order designed to meet my output and bandwidth needs. And I don't think Scott is buttering me up. I asked him a number of questions and he stated that he would never recommend a bandpass to someone if the fi q wouldn't work well. He simply said if I can spend some time designing a proper 4th order and work on the ratio, tuning, volumes, and port specs and compare them to a modeled regular ported box with the specs I would use for that then I should be able to achieve what I'm looking for. He said he's built a number of bandpass boxes and some can be quite good with SQ but they tend to have a bit less output being the 1-2:1 range. He said based on what I told him he said start with 2.5:1 and try modeling different ratios and parameters either way and settle where the output is where I want compared to the ported and th bandwidth is acceptable. Everything I have read and what Scott has told me leads me to believe this is a pretty good option as long as I model and design well. But this is running in circles. I guess unless someone can help me with the actual modeling and comparing each type of box for $$ via PayPal or answer any of my original questions that still apply then we are done here. My final decision will be based off the modeling. Will winisd work well for this or bass box pro?

Fair enough. Not trying to come off that way. I'm just confused as to why the manufacturer seems to think that it should work well granted it will take some solid planning.Also I think you misunderstood the neo pros are going in the back of the car for the rear speakers not up front with the IDs. Is that where the misconception was? So I'm not that worried about the Neo pros they're just for rear fill/some added mid bass (which they are apparently a little better in car doors than some other mids) I plan to blend the neo pros in. A friend has two neo pros in the rear and focals up front I'm not sure which model but I believe they were a little more pricey than the IDs. And I thought his sounded pretty good. He did say he had to roll off and tune the gain on the neo pros to find a balance but it sounded pretty damn good to me. Maybe I'm not as much of a SQ guy as some? However I have a couple of hack buddies with subs in a prefab box and stuff like that and it sounds garbage to me. So I'm a strong believer in its less about the gear and more about the install and tuning. Do you really think with my gear that it's just a total wash? That's why I was saying you sounded negative before. I'm not as experienced as you but I'm also not an idiot. I was just looking for some thoughts and some help designing an enclosure. I do appreciate the responses though, so thank you

Anything above 2:1 should be similar or more output within that band obviously the higher the ratio the more output but less bandwidth. Scott told me I should be able to find a happy medium with a decent bandwidth and slightly more output than a ported enclosure especially compared to seats closed and blow through. He recommended I try around 2.5:1 based on what I told him. He said I'd have to model to workout the exact volumes and ratio and tuning to see what band with and output would work best for me. But he seems a lot more confident that I can make something that will satisfy my needs over a ported enclosure. But it seems you don't agree with that?

He didn't say "not bad" I just worded it that way my bad lol. He told me it would work well and he wouldn't tell me to build one of he thought it wouldn't be good. Also I'm just repeating what Iv read apparently a 4th order can increase output as long as the ratio is over 2:1 and especially with a blow through. Is this wrong information?

The gas tank is behind the seats and there's a big jump I have to work around. Why does this make a difference for bandpass? Also my seats fold down but I need to use them and don't want to keep them folded down. Also I will be slightly powering the Q I'll be using my 2000w sundown sno which is rated just over 2000w, so I figure after losses the sub will see 1700w. So wouldn't a bandpass enclosure be a good option for me as long as I design it properly? Does anyone know a good designer that can help me or a shop/builder in the Rhode Island/Massachusetts area that can help me?

You don't think if I get the design right I will reap the benefits of blowing all the output into the cabin? I really only need 25-65hz to lay decent with a slight roll off on either side of that spectrum. I'm getting mixed opinions. Some are telling me (including Scott from Fi himself) that a 4th would be the best option as long as I design it well. He said that a 4th order won't be too bad for this sub and the Q is a good option for it despite the numbers leaning toward a ported or 6th order in the real world they can to either way quite nicely. Would you agree with that? He said that a 4tb order is very doable but a 6th would take many trials and be hard to pull off well as well as put he woofer at risk due to the bad power handling characteristics of a 6th order. He said 4th orders are somewhat forgiving. Would you agree with these two paragraphs I said? I have been advised to try around the 2.5:1 ratio in order to create the output im looking for while having a pretty wide band of output. Thanks for all the help. Would anyone be willing to help me with the design process. I'm willing to send some money via PayPal.

Ok what software do you recommend I use? Will winisd pro tell me everything I need to know or should I get bass box pro? I tried to use winisd pro but when I enter in my subs parameters it says "error consistency check failed" and won't let me continue. Any ideas on how to get past that? Also I have been told an equation for finding the resonant frequency of the sealed portion and then have been told to tune the ported chamber to that, is that true? I have then been told that it's a good idea to build the sealed side of the box first and then actually test the resonant frequency? However it is unlikely that I will be able to test just the sealed portion due to the fact I don't have the proper gear for that and who knows if I have someone build the box for me or I build it myself if they will be willing to test. If I have someone else build for me because it's winter I need to find someone that has a lot of experience with bandpass boxes in RI. Any comment on whether or not I can just use modeling/equations to figure out the resonant frequency to tune to or so I have to test?

M5 did not tell me to run a normal ported enclosure through the cabin with the sub facing the trunk. If he did I would laugh and not take any of his advice seriously. Just like I'm doing with yours. Ask anyone yourself if what you told me is a good idea. It's just not and that's why I won't be needing your advice so carry on now I'll take it from those who have some more knowledge/experience than both you and I. Thanks

its hard to take your opinion seriously because you can't just blow a ported enclosure into the cabin with the sub in the trunk. that would totally kill output because the two sources would now be working separately. i think I'm going to stick with a bandpass 4th order blow through but just make sure i get the design right first. any help on that is appreciated. Just because it's behind the seat does not make it some soundproof booth. You will not lose nearly as much output as you assume you will. it doesn't matter. if the sub is in the trunk and the port is blowing through there will be phasing issues and a lot of output will be taken. your statement is somewhat correct if you fire both the port and the sub in the trunk you don't lose that much output, but once you separate the two waves its a shit show. the only way you want to port a normal ported enclosure into the cabin is if you fire the sub into the cabin as well. hopefully someone else with some more experience can help me out with my more specific bandpass questions.

its hard to take your opinion seriously because you can't just blow a ported enclosure into the cabin with the sub in the trunk. that would totally kill output because the two sources would now be working separately. i think I'm going to stick with a bandpass 4th order blow through but just make sure i get the design right first. any help on that is appreciated.

Yeah I hear you man I'm just saying I don't think my gear is all that bad like your making it sound. Iv heard people sound pretty good with worse. The reason I chose a more sq oriented sub is because I usually build boxes that maximize the spl with that particular sub so I like to build a bit on the big and low side but while still getting fairly loud and sounding good while doing it. I know you can't have everything but my buddy has a Q and I really liked it which is what made me get one. I'm just trying to maximize it with a 4th order blow through. If I didn't have a sedan is build a ported enclosure and call it a day. But I'm thinking a blow through 4th order if built properly should do the trick better than a ported enclosure sealed off from the back seats. What do you think? Any help as far as my questions go or actual advise for nailing a nice 4th order wih the non high qts Q? As far as volume, power handling, ratio, and tuning?

That's weird because the neo Pro's are advertised as mid bass drivers obviously the 6.5s won't be anything crazy but it should help for some fill. And why is SQ far from my concerns? I already have the Q so I will be rocking it. It seems your perspective is seriously negative. I'm trying to work best with what I have hear and most seem to think my gear will be okay. I'm just trying to get the install right now...

That sounds like a hot mess of crap to me. Nothing listed goes well together, not even close. Should start with your goals and space. Wherever else you've been reading has you very confused. That depends. It'll come with a cost though if it does. No. Forget everything you think you learned wherever you heard ratio. That is an absolute fail and will make the answer to #1 both quieter and shittier sounding. SQ and SPL are dire opposites. One is playing ONE note as loud as possible the other playing them all equal. You can't compromise. From your description a bandpass sounds like a terrible choice for you so far. This also makes the rest of your questions moot and somewhat off topic. I know they are opposites. i def dont want to be a one note wonder but im saying i would like to hit a band of notes 30-60hz as hard as possible. does a bandpass still sound like a bad idea? really i just wanted to get louder and figured a blow through bandpass would help me do that. but if you think a simple ported enclosure will do pretty much as well in the SPL department than ill just do that. also im still thinking my sub is more suited for a ported enclosure with an ebp of 87 and a qts of .371, what do you think? Also whats so bad about my gear? i realise the neo pros in the rear wont give me the most accurate staging but i figured they'd help me get some mid bass punch/warmth. but i thought the fi q and ID CTX's were a pretty good fit.