Impious

Instead of asking us to do all of the "leg work" and submit drivers for your "approval".....why don't you do the leg work, find some midbass speakers that fit your budget and goals, and if you are unsure you ask us if the drivers you've selected will meet your goals. I can't count the number of times I've sat at a computer for half an hour searching a dozen websites for products that meet the posters requests only for them to dismiss all of my suggestions for one reason or another and select instead an inferior product they found on their own. It's not worth everyone else's time to do your leg work. I don't mind helping someone choose between given products......but we shouldn't be expected to sit here and do the research for you.

1st question: Yes, just set the gain appropriately and you'll be fine. 2nd question: Why do you need to cross you sub over so high? The Dayton's should be able to cover well below 100hz

No one has answered my questions.

I haven't changed the setup any as of yet. Got busy working on other projects 'round the house.

18sound seems to produce pretty good drivers, albeit they can be on the pricier side of things. The Fs is pretty low for being pro audio, however the Q is very low so it's going to begin it's roll-off pretty early with a shallow slope. Definitely don't plan on great low end extension unless you plan on building a ported enclosure into your door. The DE500 is the compression driver the ID Neo is based on (possibly a copy of, though I believe ID claims there are differences). So it's a good performing unit as well. The compression drivers are not designed to be direct radiating devices. The are specifically designed for horn loading. The horn lens (or "body") improves sensitivity by improving the acoustic impedance match between the source (the speaker or compression driver) and the air into which it's playing. The horn body is what gives HLCD (horn loaded compression drivers) the benefits that they have; high efficiency, controlled directivity, etc. Yes, choice of horn lens is very important. For starters, the design of the body sets the usable bandwidth of the HLCD. The length and mouth area of the body will determine the effective operating bandwidth of the horn. Generally speaker, the shorter the horn and smaller the mouth, the higher the cutoff (crossover) frequency needs to be....the longer and larger the horn, the lower the cutoff frequency. So the size of the horn is going to determine how low you will be able to effectively use the HLCD, and this must be matched with your system design goals. You can't use a horn body that's only good down to 3khz if you intend on trying to cross the horn at 1200hz. Second.....part of the benefit of using a HLCD is controlled directivity. Instead of the sound being radiated in all directions from the speaker as is the case with a direct radiating driver (with the exception of things like beaming), the horn body controls and limits the off-axis response giving a certain dispersion pattern. The shape of the horn is going to determine the dispersion pattern. This is usually stated in degrees, and basically tells you how the off-axis response of the horn will be. Now, with standard pro audio horn bodies you're going to have symmetrical dispersion in the horizontal plane.....for use in a car, this is generally not a good thing. This is why car audio-specific horns have the shape they do....they are designed to allow the sound to radiate towards areas we want it to be (like towards the driver and passenger), but limit it's dispersion towards areas we don't want it (like towards the doors). This can help improve the sound by reducing reflections off of various surfaces in the vehicle and can help achieve a more uniform dispersion pattern across the listening area. Another consideration is the shape of the horn. The shape of the horn and horn termination (how thing are treated at the end of the horn's mouth) is going to affect frequency response and internal reflections in the horn itself. This will, obviously, have a large impact on the response of the horn. Anomalies in the response as a result of internal reflections can't be fixed with an EQ since it's an acoustic effect occuring within the horn....a poor horn design is going to have poor performance unless steps are taken to physically modify the conditions within the horn body such as use of foam and differing termination techniques. There are some other things to take into consideration that will affect sound also, but I think that gives you the jist of things. So.....the short answer to your question could have just been yes, the horn lens matters I wouldn't try to use pro audio style horns inside a vehicle unless you are only worried about how loud you are able to get. Car audio specific horns, while definitely not perfect, take our specific considerations into account. The only real outlet for those right now are Image Dynamics. In which case, unless you've already found a set of horn bodies you are trying to mate compression drivers to, you would probably be best off to just look for a set of new or used ID HLCD's (includes both the horn body and compression driver); either the CD1-Pro, CD2-comp or the newer Ultra's. USD Audio had some as well, but they are harder to find. Illusion Audio and Veritas also had some horns, but those are harder to find. Those are the only companies I would really trust to purchase car audio horns as there were a couple other companies that I probably wouldn't recommend. It's possible to buy the ID horn bodies by themselves and then purchase compression drivers separately, but normally not cost effective if you can find a good used pair unless you simply want to use a different compression driver than ID uses. The ID's come in mini-horn (shorter) or full-bodied (longer) styles. As noted above, the full bodies will play a little lower but are harder to fit. Not if setup properly. The midbass will be used within a region where the ear can't really differentiate height cues, and car audio horns placed under the dash are designed to use the dash essentially as an extension of the horn body.....so the sound will "roll" up the dash and provide a higher sound stage. The horns need to be properly mated to the underside of the dash without any gaps between the bottom of the dash and the top of the horn mouth. How they are aimed (horizontally and vertically) will affect imaging. Generally you want to mount them as wide (side to side) and as far back (towards the fire wall) as possible. Also keep in mind, a large part of sound stage reproduction is frequency response and time alignment (there's much more to it also, of course, but these fundamentals need to be right to have a good foundation). You will, I repeat will, need equalization. You will also want to make sure you have adequate control over time alignment of all of the drivers. Hope that helps.

What exactly separates this driver from the other entry/mid level priced drivers already on the market? What differentiates it from the competition? Why should someone buy a VVX-12 instead?

Seriously? Nick just posted an update on this yesterday, the thread is listed on the first page of this forum, 3 links below yours. Two seconds of reading would have yielded your answer: Current BTL back order - SSA Car Audio Forum You can also find more information HERE and HERE There are several threads right here on the main page regarding the issue. I don't think the Fi section needs anymore active threads relating to the current backorder, given the information is already on here and available to anyone willing to take a second and read. So I'm closing this thread. Scott or Nick, if you disagree with my decision to close the thread based on redundancy please feel free to reopen.

Load your subwoofers, enclosure and power level into an enclosure modeling program and look at the excursion plot...it will give you a rough idea of where your excursion (and excursion troubles) are going to be. Ideally you would want to keep the excursion below Xmax. Generally you're going to be okay for around a half-octave below tuning. Setting it exactly at tuning is a little conservative, probably a little too conservative and with some disadvantages. Keep in mind a SSF is nothing more than a highpass filter. If the manufacturer follows standard crossover terminology, then the frequency the SSF is set to will be the -3db point of the signal. So setting it at your tuning frequency could potentially (and unnecessarily) result in a loss of output within the useable bandwidth. This is of course all subject to different circumstances.

Ok? Since I don't see a question actually posed on your post, I'm going to assume you would like us to help you decide which to purchase. However, your post does not contain enough information for us to really be of much aid. For starters, it would be very helpful to know what subwoofers you were using and what your electrical system will consist of.

I guess I really don't understand what this thread is about? Are you asking a question or just making random statements?

He is THE ONE. . . . LOL.....Well played Ryan.

The "back plate" part is 25mm thick -- and is needed for the amount of flux intended for the design. 35mm of the plate is cut out for clearance which leaves a good bit of room so I can use a range of coil lengths. With a 50mm long coil I have 37.5mm of clearance remaining, for example. I didn't want to have a multi-piece assembly so I had it all milled out from a solid chunk of steel... back plate and pole are all one piece. Cool beans. I was just curious......looked like a whole lot of steel back there

Keep in mind that most high volume manufacturers design their equipment for a wide range of uses. While the unit may clip at 75-80% of maximum volume with a 0db tone, it won't with a lower level source......which gives the HU some additional "headroom" in it's volume range when used with lower level sources, such as radio or quieter music. So just because a HU clips at less than full volume, it doesn't make it "bad", just designed for a different range of consumer uses. Asking the question "does this headunit clip" to a manufacturer is a little vague.....it all depends on the various setting and source material. That's like asking an amplifier manufacturer if their amps clip the signal.....sure they can, they all can, it's just a matter of when and why, or under what circumstances. Just like with an amp, different settings (such as boosting the treble or bass controls, or EQ bands if the HU has them) will cause the unit to clip earlier in it's volume range (or cause a unit that doesn't "clip" with a 0db tone to start clipping the outputs). And as mentioned......no, not all HU's clip at a given volume setting. But they all can, depending on the use.

By the 4th layer you are gaining little to no benefit by way of constrained layer damping and basically just adding mass to the panel.....in which case, there are possibly cheaper and more effective means of simply adding mass. Hence my comment. As to the original question; If flexing the door panel is the problem, is there a means by which you could seal off the inner door panel so that less pressure is reaching the exterior door panel? I think that may be a better option than trying to re-engineer the door structure. You may even by able to incorporate some form of bracing the exterior door panel into the system.

What's up with the ginormous backplate? Just from looking at the pictures it doesn't look like it needs all of that simply for rearward clearances.......is the large backplate required to carry the full magnetic flux of the motor without oversaturating?

I know I've mentioned this before, and I believe it might have even been the last time you posted that particular picture. The KLM wire is CCA (copper clad aluminum). Stinger is true copper AFAIK. The aluminum wire has to be thicker to have similar performance to true copper cable (the Stinger, in this example). So it's not "OMG look the Knu is so much thicker"........if the KLM wasn't thicker, then it wouldn't have performance close to that of 4ga actual copper wire. It's not thicker because it's better; it's thicker because if it wasn't, it would be substantially worse. The KLM being thicker only makes it closer in performance to actual copper, not better because it's thicker. The KLM is thicker because it has to be, because it's made with an inferior material. I believe even with the oversized thickness, the CCA wire still has less capabilities than accurately sized copper wire. And as mentioned above by 95Honda, strand count only affects flexibility. I believe Duran's point was that a fancy name on the jacket doesn't make the cable better. As long as the thickness is correct for the gauge, the strand count is high enough to have the flexibility you need, and it's copper, it will perform just as well regardless of the brand name.

Somewhere between office background noise and a space shuttle launch.

Tell me more about the setup. What mids are you using, how many, where are they being located, what exactly is it you are trying to brace? I wouldn't do 4 layers of deadener. Each additional layer is progressively less effective. By the 4th layer you are wasting a lot of time and money for little benefit.

As noted, the graph was generated with the Klippel measurement system.

As long as it's not the cheap fleabay wire that is really only 4ga or 8ga even though the jacket is stamped 0/1ga.......welding wire is fine.

Good luck with the project Now that you've spilled the beans on your project, feel free to post results and progress here on SSA as well if you don't mind and have the time I for one would be interested in seeing what you are able to come up with.

A pair of those drivers would do very well IB in a vehicle.

No product on earth has a failure rate of 0%. Every product is going to have some percentage of units that fail. You purchased from an unauthorized dealer to save $25. The trade-off is that if the unit fails, you are SOL on a replacement or warranty. That is the risk you accepted when you decided to purchase from an unauthorized dealer; You accepted that not having a warranty on the product was worth the $25 initial savings when you purchased the product. There is absolutely no sense in blaming the product or company for your decision. PAC can't track the history of that unit because it was purchase unauthorized.......It might have been a B-stock, non-authorized repair, used or malfunctioning unit that the "dealer" tossed on ebay to make some easy money. It happens, and that's the reason PAC won't warranty those products. You have nobody to blame but yourself. It's a "funkin' joke" that you are blaming PAC because you made a decision and accepted risks that ended up biting you in the ass.

Well, I don't know how helpful this may be, but worth a shot. Fi X 12" Fs is already almost 36hz, from some quick figuring it looks like mass would only need to drop by ~27g to reach an Fs of ~39hz. Now, I don't know the mass of their dustcaps, but you are starting from a much closer point so that might be something they may be able to help manipulate with the dust cap. Q is higher, but they have a S2 and S4 options, so they may be able to manipulate the coil and gap width/etc to lower the Q to your target. Vas is smaller than the Dcon which from the sounds of things, if you can get the Fs and Q within your target range the smaller Vas will help keep overall size down some. 18mm Xmax will help reach your output goals. And it's still an affordable driver I would shoot Scott or Nick @ Fi an email or PM on here and see if that's something they could work out for you. As a last ditch effort, you may try the Audioque HDC. It's twice as expensive, but the Fs and Q are already in your range and it should have enough useable throw for your application. Oh, or a Fi BL.....again, expensive (compared to your goal), but the dual 2 has an Fs and Q that should be within your range, good throw and small Vas. Pro Audio drivers would be nice for your app, but it's hard to find an affordable driver that has significant throw