Impious

LMAO......it's hilarious you noticed that as it drives my dad crazy. He's constantly giving my crap about the squeaky hinge. I went over to use his garage Sunday to finish up, and as soon as I was parked in the garage he came out with the can in-hand, stated "I'm tired of listening to this fucking door" and coated it with the grease.

LOL....wow. Pretty salty. Wish their website had (a lot) more info on it. But those would have to be some pretty spectacular pieces of equipment to support those prices, considering they're priced up there with some of the best performing speakers on the planet. Well, now that time has gone by they have beat most all of the other high(er) dollar equipment, and took 8 awards and two world titles home from Finals, and all without a piece of time alignment nor processing to make them perform perfectly. All of these guys systems are running less than 5000 or 6000 dollar systems and beating systems that cost 6 to 12 times that much to build. I think that says plenty about the quality of speaker you are buying and that the price is not too high. That really doesn't mean anything. Sorry to burst your bubble. Competition is not a valid format for comparing individual products as there are far too many variables at play. This is where things like empirical testing become extremely helpful at identifying actual, meaningful differences between products. The products might do well in competition yet still very well be underperforming for their price, and overpriced for their performance and/or build quality. What if I built a system that "beat" a Blues stereo in competition out of $200 worth of speakers with the same minimal processing? Using your logic, that would then prove conclusively that they are overpriced, correct? Sorry, I'm not impressed by their "SQ" competition awards (although I do offer congratulations to the winners, who I'm sure devoted a large amount of time and sweat into building their systems). I'm sorry I'm a more demanding consumer, one who is not going to be awestruck by some shiny trophies and requires more in-depth information. I'm sorry I'm not willing to accept a determination of a products worth or performance based on primarily subjective opinions. And I'm sorry that I'm one who understands the value and benefit of empirical analysis. They very well might be worth the asking price in terms of performance. But some trophies and subjective opinions are not what's going to make that statement true, at least not with any semblance of actual validity. It will take a much more scrupulous examination to make that kind of determination.

For starters, not every sub uses off-the-shelf parts. Good luck assembling a recone for a W7, for (extreme) example. So your options are going to be limited to subs that use non-customized parts. Second, do you know how to go about identifying and ordering identical parts to achieve the same T/S parameters and same durability requirements as the original product? Third, not everyone is going to sell parts individually, much less (for example) custom wind a single coil which is going to vary sub-to-sub. I don't now about NCA Labs, they might. But most companies are probably going to require 1) a minimum order quantity for each product, and/or 2) require you purchase their standard products, no custom jobs. Most of the "recones" you see people doing on the internet are not using the original OEM parts, more than likely due to one or many of the above reasons (and probably more I didn't state here). So, all in all, I don't think it's going to be as easy as you seem to think. I'm not trying to be a jackass here either. The internet forums have given people the idea that anybody can go out, buy some parts, put them together as they see fit and come out with some fantastic sub......when this isn't the case. I'm trying to help eradicate the misconception that it's as easy as the internet makes it out to be.

Off axis usually works out best A lot of guys start by aiming at the speakers at the back of the headunit, then work from there. I explained why in a post a while ago: CLICK ME I played with aiming a lot. I would have liked to try them a little more vertical (but still off-axis) but didn't have the space height wise, and I would have liked to try them more off-axis (aiming straight across the vehicle) but didn't have the space width-wise from the firewall to the door opening. So I did have some compromises and limitations based on the speaker layout and space restrictions.....so I didn't get to try everything, but overall I think results are still pretty good.

How do you intend on designing and building these initial recones when you have no means by which to predict or measure T/S parameters? Despite what the internet would lead you to believe, you can't just throw random soft parts on some miscellaneous motor and end up with decent, much less good, results. Unless you (at absolute minimum) have a way to predict and measure T/S parameters, you are just going to be flushing money down the toilet by purchasing all of these parts, randomly assembling them, and then not having the slightest clue of what the final result actually is. You will also be ripping off the people who's subs you are reconing. Sorry, but you need to seriously rethink your plan. It would be pretty inadvisable to do what you are wanting to do.

Not many pictures today as I was busy working, and not much to see. I got the wires ran and passives wired up (have the passives under my front seats, large suckers won't fit anywhere else), used some CLD to "seal" the hole in the kickpanel to the hole in the car's kickpanel, then stuffed the kicks full of polyfill. I tried using the grills for the mids from the CS60CF's that I had laying around, but the grill's ring squished the rubber ring on the front of the midbass, which in turn deformed the surround....I was a little upset about that But at last, they make MUSIC !! (yes, I need to sweep out my car) What to play for their inaugural voyage? Nothing less than the King of Pop ofcourse!

No, it's not Sound quality is accurate reproduction of the source material. That's not subjective. Someone's subjective personal preference of what sounds good is opinion based....but that's not "sound quality", that's their subjective opinion of what sounds good. People incorrectly describe their subjective personal preferences as sound quality.....but that's nothing more than a misuse of the term "sound quality".

The "true" definition as "sound quality" would best be described as: an accurate reproduction of the source material in every respect. If one's goal were "true" sound quality, then their goal for their system would be to reproduce all aspects of the source material as accurately as possible. What most people actually mean when they say "sound quality" is not accurate reproduction of the source material but rather their subjective personal preference for what constitutes good sound. They want a system that sounds good to them, even if it isn't completely accurate to the original source (the easiest example would be those who enjoy exaggerated subbass). That doesn't make their goal wrong.....certainly the goal of any system should be, first and foremost, to achieve maximum enjoyment for the primary listener. But they do use the wrong word to describe what it is they are looking to achieve with their system. They are mistating their goals. Sound quality, and what someone perceives as good sound based on their personal subjective preference, are not synonymous and interchangeable ideas....but unfortunately that's how they're used. Not necessarily. There are certainly valid reasons to use a ported enclosure in a system designed primarily for accurate reproduction of the source material.....another large misconception is that ported enclosures are only for those who don't care about "sound quality". But it would depend on your reasons for wanting to use a ported enclosure. Although, rather an go into more details about why, I think you'd be better off to not to assign a label to your system and just go for what you like regardless of what term might be used to describe that. Too many factors at play to say one way or the other. It will more than likely sound different, subjectively whether it's a good or bad difference is going to depend on the listener and the overall goals for the system.

I run my Shiva-X infinite baffle. Those Eclipse subs are good subs. I had a quartet of 88120DVC's about a decade ago. They are TC Sounds TC7 based subwoofers. The Shiva-X2 has more Xmax, lower inductance, higher rated power handling, and more than likely a more linear motor. It also has a slightly higher Qts and it's Fs is a little more than a half octave lower than the 88120DVC, which means the Shiva-X will have much better low frequency extension/low frequency output than the 88120's in sealed enclosures, and it's higher Xmax means it has the potential for more overall output. On the flip side, the Shiva's Vas is larger and is going to need a larger volume sealed enclosure to reach a given Qtc than the Eclipse. The Eclipse would really be more at home in a ported enclosure. In ported enclosures of similar size the Shiva would have probably have better low frequency extension although if placed in an Eclipse-sized ported enclosure the response would potentially be a little more peaky and it's transient response probably a little worse than the Eclipse. And, again, the Shiva would need a larger sized enclosure to reach equivalent alignments.

Unless you end up having to buy a 2nd set of speakers because the non-warrantied speakers have something go wrong that would have been covered under warranty. Because if that happens, then the warrantied speakers are $50 cheaper

Different purposes. My goal is to reduce the the resonances of the enclosure (the kickpanel). The goal of applying it to the basket of the driver (I'm assuming that's what you're referring to?) is usually to reduce the basket's resonances, which can color the sound if severe enough (although shouldn't be a problem on my drivers) Won't be for a while Need to keep it to run tweeters if/when I decide to go active.

Just for starters, how do you intend on predicting and subsequently measuring T/S parameters with these hybrid, cobbled together subs?

Thanks No, it's not a Cutlass. It's a '96 LSS.....basically the Oldsmobile equivalent of a Bonneville. Rest of the system; Headunit: Alpine W200 (I'd like to switch to something more conservative but my kids think it's "cool" I have a DVD player w/ video screen in my dash) Processor: JBL MS-8 Amplifiers: (3) Blaupunkt Velocity VA2200 and (1) Blaupunkt Velocity VA2100 Subwoofer: Exodus Audio Shiva-X I have one VA2200 bridged to each channel on the front stage for an available 600w x 2 up front, and the 3rd VA2200 is running the sub. The VA2100 isn't currently being used. LOL.....yeah, I have a feeling that's probably the way I'm going to go. But it never hurts to dream!

If you have no other processing than the DC's should be a no-brainer.

I would use the Zapco DC's for the enhanced processing capabilities. Unless you aren't planning on using the DC's processing......in which case I'd use which ever has the most power.

What exactly are you trying to do?

I had a sample tile of SDS CLD laying around that Don had sent me a long time ago that I hadn't figured out a use for yet. So I decided what the heck, I'll throw it in the kickpanels! I originally hadn't planned on putting the SDS in the kicks as I actually forgot I had that tile laying around....it was a last minute addition. I cut the tile into quarters and laid it on the larger areas to hopefully help dampen some resonances. Kicks getting a little SDS'ification: After that I proceeded on to the time honored SQ tradition of piling on some non-hardening modeling clay (NHMC). The idea being to add mass to the structure to shift and reduce the resonances. How well does it work? I really have no idea! How do you like that for an answer? Seriously though, I've not seen any quantitative data on this method, and I don't have the equipment to conduct such a test. But a cursory investigation of the kicks pre- and post-NHMC revels that the kickpanels are significantly heavier after adding the NHMC (which is good, knowing that I need a 4x increase in mass to lower Fs one octave....the heavier the better), and with the 'ole knock test the kickpanel with NMHC sounds much less resonant and "hollow" than the kickpanel without NHMC. So, subjectively it appears it should help some. I've used it before but didn't really spend any time trying to compare with and without differences. And for $10 it isn't that expensive. I have something like 2lbs of clay per kick, which doesn't sound like a lot but really the difference is weight is extremely noticeable. Plus, it adds all kinds of pretty colors! I didn't add much to the backside of the kickpanel because clearance is tight, and the form is cylindrical which will be stronger and less prone to resonance than the large flat areas. Oh, and since I didn't mention it before I also chamfered the rear of the mounting ring for the midbass since the .75" MDF is approximately the same depth as the side openings in the midbass' basket (which is the only escape path for air on these midbass) to help improve airflow. And that's where they sit Before I put the speakers in I'll also fill each kick w/ polyfill. Other than that, it's just waiting for the weekend and some daylight so I can get them installed!

Thanks No. It's ugly. haha i'm sure its not thaaat bad My driver's door handle is a different color than the car (broke the original handle), my windshield has a crack running it's width (not worth the $375+tax to fix), and my clear coat and/or paint has flaked or wore off of about 25% of the car. It's ugly. But it runs pretty good and gets me from point A to point B, and actually the vehicle works out pretty well for car audio.......so it's a keeper until it gives up the ghost I'm not too particular about looks and I drive 25K+ miles/year, so as long as it fits my audio equipment......the rest doesn't really matter. I haven't decided. If I can get them sanded down pretty smooth I'd like to paint them. But that really depends on how much patience I have at the time. I may go the easy way out and just carpet them. LOL @ your picture Aaron. Uploading some pictures now. Will have a minor update in a few minutes.

Any recommendations? I've got an Alpine DVA-9860 & H701 I'd sell ya

Thanks No. It's ugly.

I think you may underestimate the differences in your hearing sensitivity at various frequencies. 110db @ 1khz is a lot different than 110db @ 50hz. Your hear is much more sensitive to sounds in the midrange than it is to subbass, so you will experience more "loudness" in the midrange with less SPL compared to subbass. It will only take a true HLCD a watt or two to reach 110db in the midrange. I doubt you could stand to listen to a consistent 120db in the midrange for any appreciable period of time, which for a 105db sensitivity horn would only take around 30w to achieve. You would probably reach your threshold of pain from the output of the horns before you would reach it from the output of your subs. The Sundown would be more than sufficient.

The drivers are likely 8ohm.....so a 125w @ 4ohm amp would only put about 60w to the horns at full tilt. Still way more than you'll need, but no reason not to use the amp otherwise. It will work fine. Just for reference, I had 50wpc @ 8ohm on my CD2's, the gain turned all the way down and still had to set the level on the processor to -12 (the lowest it would go without completely muting that channel) in order to keep the output in check......just to give you an idea of how little power you need to use with a true HLCD. Really at normal listening levels, you'll use less than 1w of power. At full balls to the wall....horns are capable of enough output to literally deafen you while still being within their rated thermal power handling (which is why I've never understood why HLCD haven't caught on with the SPL crowd, instead of those stupid bullet tweeters). "Big" is subjective. There are a lot of different versions of the CD2's (mylar diaphragm, titanium diaphragm, Neo version ,etc) so differences will be relative. But the CD2 can play lower, probably has a little better performance thru the midrange and may have a little more top end extension depending on the specific driver used. 1200hz, steep slope (24db/oct).

Yes, just the midrange were wired out of phase. Sounded pretty terrible with them in phase....LOL Not as much progress as I'd hoped, but I'll try to get a couple more pictures today.

Thanks for the props Should have them ready to install tonight, although I probably won't have time to actually install them until Wed.....maybe later in the week since it's freakin' dark outside when I get home from work now Both domes were out of phase........to keep them in phase. 2nd order filters, standard crossover theory says this should be the case.....and my ears agreed