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OK...I'll try a different approach. SQ subs. Type X eperiences, LMS style drivers, W6s, XBL^2 drivers, FI Qs, RE drivers....thoughts comparisons. How do the W7s stand up against other high output drivers like TC Sounds 3k, ID Max, FI BTLs, MTX 9500s in terms of output and clarity. Assume optimal power and enclosure. Does anyone employ underhung designs anymore. Are the Crystal comp drivers the same motor structure as the Audiomobile Mass drivers were? If so are the Crystal Comp Xs with the dual stack magnet the same as the upgraded underhung design used in the second version of the SVS Ultra? What are other major build houses for subs...I'm really only aware of TC Sounds. Is the Eclispe LMT drivers the same as the TC Sounds original LMS dual stack TC9 motor. What other subs in the mainstream are produced/supplied/designed by major build houses? A lot of the Elemental Desings subs seem to be similar to A lot of Image Dynamics subs...same suppliers? ID Max and 13AV2...same motor structure? Does anyone have experience with the new RE Audio XXX or MX drivers? Just a few questions...I have a ton more but I seem to be annoying people. Just looking for general discussion.

The idea is to start discussion. Not really looking for too many specifics...just want to know opinions based of peoples' experiences. The only reviews I see about most mainstream subs are on online shopping sites and are always the same vague, general, uneducated, teeine-bop hype reviews..."this thing really pounds"..."this sub does 1000watts!"..."my new subs out hit my friends subs"... ...useless nonspecific jabber. I'm looking for reviews from people who actually know what they are listening for. And then compare that with experiences with less known but seemingly more capable woofers. I'm not asking what subs to buy for a certain setup...just trying to get beyond the hype...I thought this was the place to do that.

I would think for SQ sealed would be a better option. Not that ported doesn't sound good...sealed tend to hit lower and have a smoother response. With that kind of power and with the subs you're considering loud is an inevitability. My vote goes for sealed...I have never used the Q or the Icon...but I did build a 3 cube sealed box for an RL-P with about 900rms...and it was loud, low and smooth.

I admit the question is quite vague. But intentionally so. I wanted a variety of responses. I quess I would like to hear from people who have experience with some of the top tier mainstream subs and with the top teir underground subs. people who have played with W7s and TC subs, Type Xs and Icons, etc. In the underground there seems to be a lot of attention to magnet/motor design and coil design. The mainstream subs don't seem to post any literature on such things. I am familier with T/S parameters and can draw conclusions that way...but it's always nice to here from people with actual experience with the drivers themselves. As an example...at one point I owned an Alpine Type R(the newer style) because the specs looked good for what I needed in a sub at the time. I was so completely dissapointed in the SQ of that sub that I sold it within two weeks. Obviously numbers and theoretical conclusions only go so far. Are the W7s really worth the $$? Does the Type X really have the SQ that Alpine boasts about? Is the Solo X living up to the hype? Does the MTX 9500 really stand up to the abuse they claim it does? How do these subs sound as far as SQ is concerned? What kinds of motors and coil configurations do they employ? Does anyone use underhung designs anymore? These are some of the things I would like to know. I could give a $hit less about reversable mounting rings, pretty cosmetics, terminal jumpers and snap-on grills. What about these mainstream subs make them "superwoofers"? I have read countless reviews on the underground subs from people who obviously know what they are talking about....it seems mostly "enlightened" audio-freaks go for the underground subs because they know the difference between hype and substance. That's why I have stuck with TC products...they are built well and perfom well...not marketed as super-duper-mega-bass....they just work and sound great. I suspect these are the same reasons people choose, SSAs, FIs, REs, etc.

Why be boring ? i say "Stagnent water draws Masquito's" Amen brother!

Totally depends on the drivers...there are "mainstream" drivers I'd take over internet-based brands, and vice versa... It'd help if you said what you're exactly looking for out of your setup, what you have for a front stage, what kind of music you listen to, etc. This isn't one of those "what should I use in me car" threads... I guess I would be looking for general sound quality and bulid quality. Overall design and output. I'm looking for opinions abouts various subwoofers not for any specific application. I'm not looking for new products. I currently have a TC Sounds TC3K 15 and a Diamond Audio 6,4,tweet frontend, 2 Kenwood Excelon amps, Kenwood XXV headunit and music keg, and a pretty beefy electrical system.

Tc Sounds TC3000/Audio Pulse Axis 15 would sound tasty as well!

Hey there Shizz...I found this link that explains all sorts of different tweeters including the horn loaded designs...hope it helps. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tweeter

TC Sounds had a woofer, 5200 series I believe, the 15 only needed .8cubes because the motor force was so strong, something like 400newtons. They said the enclosure only needed to be big enough to physically fit the driver. However they needed a ton of power, about 2k+ I think. It had some serious output though, 30+mm one way BL limited xmax and 45+ mechanical xmax.

This guy gave me a price quote(I'm not going to post it): Erik at [email protected]

I would also inspect the connection points of the crossover components...sometimes the solder joints crack from closing the doors. For a broader test, swap the crossovers and see if the issue follows the crossover...you might be able to narrow it down a bit.

I'm sure the 10s would sound fine. But the 12s will give you a smoother response and go deeper. As far as the RL-P which ///M5 suggested, they are a better speaker, however I don't know if 600rms to a pair will be enough to run them very well. That is something you will have to ask Mike from SoundSplinter. I have a friend that has a TC sub using the TC9 motor(same as the rL-p) and he feeds it 800rms daily and it loves every bit of it, so 300 might be underpowered. Have you considered a single sub sysytem? A single RL-P 15 with 600rms would do really well. Just a thought. The SSA Icons do look pretty tasty but require quite a bit of power. If you're set on a pair of subs go for the Epic 12s, the power fits, the space fits, and the preferred enclosure fits. Just my opinion....curious...what amp are you going to use?

Hi Fi...I have (2)Audiomobile Mass series motor structures. no frames or top parts, just the magnet strutures. They are(were) 3inch underhung dvcs. Can they be rebuilt at all? They don't have to be dvcs. I would actually prefer single 4 or single 3. They need whole new top assemblies and softparts. Can this be done...ballpark cost for 15's. Thanks for any info.

I don't know how many of you know much about Thilo Stampler, TC Sounds, and Audiopulse. I recently visited thier forum(which I do on occasion) and was amazed by what a sad collection of wannabe-ghetto trash that has infested the site. You have people posting other people criminal records, "authorized dealers" spouting profanity, and the same 3-5 people posting anything anywhere they can generally bad-mouthing anyone with anything decent or intelligent to say. I feel bad for Thilo because unfortunately THIS is his public face. http://www.audiopulse.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=102

1) member 2) no idea 3) who the fudge cares - that place sucks ass. 3!

My buddy had a 2x2ohm sub run in series(4ohm) to an Orion 225hcca amp. Then he wired it in parallel(1ohm) and we cetainly noticed a difference. If that's what you're asking. However if the amp is capable of doing both and the gain can be set in such a way that the output voltage ends up the same then you won't really hear a difference. In theory the larger load(less stress on the amp) should be cleaner. But you would have a hard time hearing it.

As much as I would love multiple drivers for crazy output....realistically I prefer(and have) a single 15, sealed, with lots of power. A 15 because it reproduces lower octave frequencies better/easier(hopefully I won't get jumped on again for that statement), sealed for less group delay(not "faster" thank you for the correction Shizz), and lots of power(power=control). Complimented by some strong 8s up front...makes for good sound.

Hey there. I was the one who suggested the Audiopulse subs. If you go to tcsounds.com and follow the Audiopulse link it will take you to the Audiopulse product website. Click on products->subwoofers->epic, and you will have all of the info you need on the subs. They can currently be purchased from EgoAudio. The guy to contact is Eric at [email protected]. I emailed him and he sent me prices including shipping on all of the currently available products. Out of respect for he and other dealers I'm not going to post that info here. He got back to me very quickly and the prices are definitely reasonable. The epic is based off of the TC2+ motor structure and is VERY similar to the RL-i series and is the former TC1000 series. 600rms to a pair of these sealed should sound outstanding. As would the RL-i 10s ported. Myself, I like sealed boxes better. I'm more into SQ than output(not to say good SQ can't come from ported alignments) I just prefer sealed. Maybe this sub will fit your needs.

By going from 12s to 10s you're going down in size by a full order of magnitude. However the RL-is have a significant edge on xmax and you're running them ported to boot. Just out of curiosity why are you going with 10s? Audiopulse makes a sub called the Epic(which is essentially an RL-i) in a 12. I think you'll be pretty happy with the RL-i 10s. JL makes a good product, although overpriced in my opinion, but I have to echo ///M5 on this one, the RL-i is a superior driver. Another setup to consider would be a single RL-p 12 with that same 600watts. But if you're set on 10s the RL-i is definitely a good choice.

Which is exactly why the size of the driver as it pertains to being "fast" is irrelivent. As you stated it's a matter of alignment and usually has a lot to do with the power and filtering applied to the sub system as well.

Let me clarify...a single sub system WILL be more linear than multiple subs coupling with eachother...it's physics...a single sound wave as opposed to two waves acting as one. I'm not saying it would be louder. This sentiment has been echoed by some of the top names in sound(Tom Nousaine, David Clark,etc.) So I quess those would be the butts. As far as frequency response goes it all depends on what you are trying to accomplish from the sub system...you can usually crossover 8s higher than a 15. I've heard 8s crossed around 80-100 down sound very clean, most 15s I've heard including mine seem to like being crossed lower(mine at 60 down), because 8s can usually render those frequencies better than big drivers. Of course these are all general theories, since we are not comparing apples to apples. I agree that the "faster" idea is folly...many perceive higher bass frequencies as being faster response which is false. They are being produced faster because it is a faster frequency but it doesn't make the sub "faster". There are too many variables to be talking too many "facts", however physical principles will always apply. No one ever said that multiple drivers are "worse"...but coupled soundwaves will inherently be less "clean" (even if it is only theoretical and audibly inperceptible) than a single soundwave. If all things were equal with the 8s and the 15, same xmax, same response, etc, then it would simply be a matter of cone area. But as Shizz's response states quite clearly the comparison is not equal. Which further proves the point that multiple small drivers will have a generally harder time reproducing lower octave soundwaves than a single large diameter driver at the same magnitude. Honestly you will not really hear a difference and as far as bass goes. I myself would rather have 4 10s than the single 15...because you won't hear the linear difference...but you will hear a difference in output. But I could not afford the extra drivers, could not give up the airspace, and lacked the power needed to drive the subs properly. Again I was stating generalities

You have to consider the nature of each type/size sub. The 8s will usually yeild a slightly higher frequency response and some people consider them to be "faster" if there is such a thing when dealing with subs. Even if you end up with the same cone area the 8s will have more motor strength per/surface area than the 15. The 15 will usually go lower easier because it has so much more cone area to reproduce low frequencies. As someone else stated there are too many variables to make a definitive call. However it has always been kind of a rule of thumb that multiple drivers usually won't sound as good as a sigle driver. There is always the cost to consider, most multiple sub setups will cost more than single sub setups. I considered going with 4 8inch SoundSplinter RL-i subs with 250rms each and .75 cubes each, for a total cost of roughly $800. Instead I went with a single TC Sounds TC3k 15 in 2 cubes with 1k rms for a cost of about $500. So I saved myself $300 and a cube of airspace and I feel the 15 gives me a lower response in my SUV than the 8s would have. That's just my opinion though. P.S. I have some pics of my install posted in the "install logs" section under TC3K 15 install pics.

That seems to be an all to often occurence in stereo shops now'days. There is a stereo shop around where I live, a very popular shop that has been around many many years, I even bought my first amp/sub from them about 15 years ago. The sales staff consists of a handful of 17-20 year olds that know very little about car audio on a technical level, and are all caught up in the hype that big name manufacturers pump out. What's more is most installers know just enough to do their job but really can give a $hit less about what it really takes to "know" car audio. Being an obssesive car audio guy since I was a teen I would love going to shops and talking to installers and sales guys just to learn more and be around like-minded people. Now that I'm all grown up and know much more that the average stereo shop drone, I don't even bother going to local shops anymore...waste of time. They hate it when you know more than they do(which most people that spend any time in these forums do). It's sad that the industry is fueled by these kids and/or installers that don't know $hit and don't really care to. If the Alpine Type R is their "premium" go-low sub then they NEED a new subwoofer line-up!

I had an Audiomobile Mass 10 in 1 cube with about 600rms to it and it went very very low...used to demo it to my friends with 20hz test tones. Also I would be willing to bet the Soundsplinter RL-i 8/Audiopulse Epic 8 can get that low as well.....But I'm sure Mr Local Stereo guy is right...it's all just manufacturer marketing ploy!

SVS had (2)versions of the Ultra. My Audiomobiles were the same as the sub on the left. I'm not sure how to measure the top plate. Is that the verticle distance inside the magnetic gap? From the bottom of the inside of the motor to the top? Let me know what to measure and I'll post the numbers. If the motors can be reconed, how will not having underhung coils affect the SQ of the driver. I know a lot of drivers magnet structures are designed/built specifically for the coils used. If I go with another coil will it still sound good? The original sub specs stated a 25mm Xmax. With a conventional coil am I still looking at that sort of movement range? Thanks again!