NDMstang65

No.. The area under the curve is the energy applied to the coil that entire cycle time.. The thing that is where the coil is changing position, to where it then starts traveling south. Rolling off and back south if it is a sine wave, or slamming immediately if it is a square wave. There is no 'down time' in the square wave form...hence the heat being induced and things burning up because the coil is stuck at 100% north or 100% south for that given point of amplitude. There is very little time that it is not at an arbitrary 5 volts. The sine wave, has a great deal of time that it is not at the 5 volts...which is where your RMS figures comes into play. As you stated, in square wave form..your peak is indeed your RMS...which completely makes sense as to why these things are burning up. Because what you are forgetting about is the coil is not in motion at this point. It does not move. Sine wave..it moves in a rolling form as it should where a great deal less heat is built up for the same input power. It is north..burning, immediately south, burning, then back again because the coil is getting to the X point north and the Z point south in the amount of time it takes for the fets to change direction of the coil. (Remember the car bouncing off of the rev limiter analogy) It is factored in over time per division..where the coil literally stops, builds heat, shoots south, builds heat, shoots north..builds heat..100 watts, is 100 watts, is 100 watts, But when the coil is burning at the extreme north and south points...because that is what it is being told to do, is where we run into issues. Again, time is the problem here. Not more power, more time. The coil sees no 'down' time or 'rest' time with this square wave form. It only gets worse when you are dumping 2kw into the sub...trying to kick off 1800 watts of heat. Then smack it with a square wave form where it is not in motion for the period of time that the gates are switching on the output transistors..and you have a burned up sub.

If...amplitude is given at say 5 volts, and current remains constant we have these two graphs below. The area below the graph line is the time constant that it is considered 'on'. The Square wave form does not see more power. It sees 5 volts for a longer period of time. The sine wave only saw the 5 volts for a very short amount of time. For those examples 15.078/10 = 1.5078.. It sees over 50% more energy for that given period of time, that one cycle. That builds up over an extended period of time more..and more..and more. It is all about time, not the power itself. The time frame is 0 to pi, amplitude is the same..which is 5. The only thing that varied is the wave form. 5 volts, 50 volts, 500 volts..5 million volts... Time per division is the issue here...

Definitely Known you waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too long. We've said this a few times over the years

Still going to disagree.. You've doubled if not more the time per division of the wave form...hence a ton more heat. It can not double the output power if it is already running at maximum output to begin with. If all the amp will do is 200 volts, and 20 amps..that is all it will do. Even if you do normalize power at say 100 volts of output without "clipping" and then drive it with a square wave the sub still gets PISSED...which realistically would be less power on the coil that is driven with the square wave form on the per watt basis because impedance is much higher (voltage constant, current lower because of impedance rise due to more heat being induced)..if you normalize to 100 volts of output on square vs. sine wave. The "wattage" by normalizing power definition is no different, all the amp is making at that point is 100 volts, lower current with the square wave if anything, and the square wave form induces a shit ton more heat? It is because it is going to the high point of the wave, stopping..burning. Immediately reversing and doing the exact same thing. It is hell on soft parts..and it burns the coils up...because it induces a TON more heat. Even using a fluke meter to test heat after driving the sub for 10 minutes..there is a very significant difference in heat in the coil with the square wave form.

No, it's not. Nick: Have you managed to determine a higher (quicker?) rate of failure for a clipped signal operating at equivalent average power levels as a non-clipped signal? Obviously a heavily clipped signal of the same RMS voltage as a non-clipped signal is going to cause a driver to fail sooner (if you breach the thermal or mechanical thresholds) as the clipped signal will deliver significantly more power over time. But I've not yet seen a test that determined a quicker failure rate for a clipped signal vs a non-clipped signal at the same average power level.....and I've never personally had enough drivers on hand to intentionally blow stuff up just for shits and giggles Yep...which is the only reason why I'm debating it. Same 4kw crown amp in the shop...sine wave, very cool sub is not pissed. Flip the signal generator over to square wave form...not so cool. The time value of the 'flat' part of the wave at the two extremes literally makes the coil sit there..and do nothing, it is not in motion. It's just hanging out burning, like bouncing the Kia off of the rev limiter and dropping the tranny in reverse.

An amp..should be an amp. There should be no processing or any associated stuff. Whatever you put in it..is what you should get out only bigger. Hell a lot of the Korean/Chinese amps don't even filter out the switching frequency operation of the output stage...that crap goes straight into the sub as well and inductively heats the tinsel leads up. And it is not just a 'straight' DC current, it is still oscillating...in the sense of hooking a battery up to the sub. Otherwise the sub would just move out or in and stay there to burn. Scott and I have spent a LOT of time testing this with the pro sound amps in the shop, using our tone generator...the sub gets straight pissed...and it is because of clipping and the time value that everybody keeps forgetting about...that induces heat. It's like holding a hyndai to the floor and bouncing it off the rev limiter, then yanking it in reverse...then back to forwards. The only time it is off the rev limiter is when it is bogging down attempting to move.

We've got a distributor in PI. You'd have to purchase through him anyhow. I can not remember his business name right off the top of my head. Alvin Cu is his name. djphatbone " At " yahoo.com

...a sub is made for 80Hz and down. You need to invest in solid components to keep up with and do what you want to do.

Going to disagree with that. When I have time or when Scott has time we'll make a graph with what we found. Power is power..but what isn't being considered is your time value of a 'square' or 'clipped' wave over the cycle period. You are at the extremes of the wave form MUCH longer which induces a significant amount of more heat to build up...which..kills the sub. Seen there...and below in the following 3 images. Yes the 'power' is 'power' and 'watts' is 'watts'...but you are not considering it over a given period of time where the coil is literally standing still burning and then immediately slamming in reverse and standing there and burning until it gets slammed forward by the fets. It is like trying to change gears without pushing in the clutch while traveling 70mph forward and 70mph rearword. Clipping...induces a SHIT ton more heat over this period of time..the heat and the coil bouncing off of the switching frequency of the output transistors..causes it to melt.

Think about it.. There is a LOT of information and processes that we have refined over thousands upon thousands of iterations.. That takes YEARS to figure out on your own. We hire somebody in..they work for a month and disappear. Next thing you know somebody else is doing something to mimic what we do.. We've already given the industry enough as it is over the years..if you look around and don't see that you are simply blind

Tonight!

Now that we have established the new direction we are taking with the trying to re-iterate the importance of having manufacturing (instead of manu-packering) here in the states it reminded me of something I learned of in history class years ago. FDR was famous for his "Fireside Chat's" back in the days of nothing but a radio to talk to the people on a personal level...so this is what we are going to do. Join us in the chat Wednesday nights at 7pm Pacific time (10pm eastern). We'll be having random contests and give away things while we are live in the chat. If you have some technical questions we definitely don't mind helping you out. Scott and I will be on there and try to spend an hour or so and give away some free stuff. This can range in anything from Shirts..to Belts..to Hats..to even some free speakers if we so feel like it. Hop in...join us! http://www.soundsolutionsaudio.com/forum/index.php?app=ipchat See ya there! -Nick

'bout that much. lol. Honestly man, put them in a Q sized enclosure..they'll be fine. What they T/S at? No idea.

Just the truth

So is that why I found a piece of bread in my subs pole vent?? LOL jk Wouldn't surprise me. I generally don't have a speaker on the table if i'm eating lunch...sometimes I forget though. Is Fi car audio Hiring? I would love to build subwoofers, that would be a dream come true! Nope.. Don't hire people that have any interest at all in car audio.

um..dude.. more motor force dictates a saddle shaped response curve ...in short lessening a single peak, spreading it out into two peaks and a valley in the response curve.

the exact date will be exactly the day that it is on the website ...we're not putting a date on it. when it is there...it is there!

correct

So is that why I found a piece of bread in my subs pole vent?? LOL jk Wouldn't surprise me. I generally don't have a speaker on the table if i'm eating lunch...sometimes I forget though.

No the amplifier in that head unit is only for the output leads to like door speakers. If you are running RCA's that does not amplify that signal...

Don't know what a 'break' is...spinning around in a chair sideways while shoving food down my throat is about it ..still run parts while eating lunch a lot of time.

Don, I'm going to need some product here shortly, what is the best way to contact you? (Can't get the website to load) Thanks! Nick

That one will be 4-5 weeks. We've got to finish up a little bit of coding for the N3 then it will be on the website (shortly, possibly tomorrow). N-SG is not top priority right now.

there's alot of post's saying the new ones don't sound like the old ones, that's my biggest problem with it all. i just dont see why they would change it and trash the older design, fi should be adding not taking away They don't sound like the old ones. They sound better then the old ones, but the difference wouldn't be drastic. They are adding something, only thing they take away is the weight of the sub, and that's a good thing Just curious, what exactly did they add? I believe in one of the other recent post, Nick or Scott said they added nothing different from gen 2 to gen 3. Same leads, spiders, etc etc... If what Fi says about adding nothing new, and simply taking away motor force, how is it possible to sound better then gen 2s? Does the motor make a difference in the sound quality? I thought all horse power equals all horse power, No matter how its produced. 1 = 1, no mater how you get there, its the same end result, thats just my opinion, not sure if its correct or not, please, enlightin me if I'm wrong, which I don't doubt it lol. Totally wrong. The UFO motors had too much motor force for daily driving applications. Many people would put them in and lose SPL. This is because it takes the 'peak' that you get and splits it apart and gives you a saddle shaped response curve. People keep saying more motor force is better, and it is only to a point, the UFO crossed that line. The N2 backed things down a bit to where it is more reasonable for daily. Those who are after SPL oriented stuff will be able to get the N3. The saddle shape in the response curve causes things to 'tame down' in the middle band of the response curve. We've gotten rid of that with the N2. It's far from 'cheap chinese shit'..our raw material steel parts are sourced from here on the N series. Everything else is moving over to that as well, hence changing over to Neo on the SSD. We are machining and doing more and more here in the states as we are absolutely sick of dealing with Chinese vendors for raw materials. We are not going to take a step back, ever. That is stupid.