sodak76

I just prefer a terminal cup for quick connect/disconnect. Besides those only cost about $5, that's the cheapest part of the box cost for me. Anyways, thanks for your thoughts, I'm gonna stick with my EDs for everyday and put the dcons in my Olds.

I wish that were my situation. The trunk in these Chargers is a bitch. Everything is with those friction pins and the panels are set up so that you can't get your fingers behind them to even try removing them without tools. What are you paying for a 3/4" sheet of mdf? The cheapest I found is 90 miles away and $55 for a 4x8 sheet. By the time I add screws, terminal, wiring, glue & carpet I'm looking at around $80-100. And unless I eBay it there's really no one else around here that I can sell it to. Anyone else who is into stereos around here would rather get a prefab box. It sucks when you're in the boonies, trust me. If I was still in the town where I used to work it probably wouldn't have been a problem.

The sub was bottoming out with the amp gain at minimum. The only way I could get around that was to lower the HU's volume control, which meant I then had to really bring up the gains on my high pass amps to the point they were almost at maximum. It also meant less fine control on my HU volume control. By going down to an amp with half the output, it allowed me to have full use of my volume control, and keep my other amps gains off the top. Do you see what I'm saying here?And as far as the amp, it has worked fine with other drivers that required more power than the Pioneers did. In fact it's still in use today in one of my brother's cars.

Like I said before, the system in my car is an optional system designed by Alpine. They apparently have some digital processing in the system to phase align the speakers for the interior. I'm using a PAC Audio interface that gets the signal from the signal bus before it's amplified. Otherwise the sub would be affected by the tone controls and whatever they set for the factory sub's crossover frequency. Most factory systems, even one like Bose, Infinity, & JBL, only have amplifiers and crossovers and upgraded speakers. This is apparently a new thing trying to optimize the system for the actual interior. The problem is it also means it's much harder to change it. Even the component speakers are different, with each having a 2ohm impedance, so it harder to find replacement speakers if you don't want to replace the factory amp as well. About the 3dB gain from a second speaker, in my case having the impedance does mean a doubling of power as well. A PPI A600 makes 150w @ 4ohms, 300w @ 2ohms, and 600w @rohms bridged. If you went the opposite way and added a second sub but put them in series, there would be no gain at all since while you are adding a second driver (+3dB), you're doubling the impedance which halves your power (-3dB).

Even with the amp on the lowest gain setting, you can still overpower a speaker. The gain is not a volume control, it's for impedance/signal matching the output of the source unit. Granted if you kept the source units signal low the amp would only have so much to amplify, thereby giving you a lower output power. But then you'd have to adjust your other amps to blend your subs to your component speakers. When I said .7 cu ft that was for the pair (.35 each). The minimum recommended volume for a dcon 12 ported is 1.75 cu ft. The enclosure I'm using has 2.8 cu ft for the subs, which is .7 cu ft under the minimum recommended 3.5 cu ft. I don't know if removing all of the trim will make it possible to fit the box, because if I have to remove the box for a flat tire or to haul something I may not have the time or tools to remove them. I live in South Dakota, and if I get a flat in the middle of winter where it can get down to -20 degrees, I'm not going to freeze my ass off trying to pull out my sub box. There's no getting around that. The amp is fine other than running hot. I've used it on several systems since that without an issue. All the Art series (and most any AB amp from back then) will run hot on anything lower than 4ohms stereo. That's why they pushed (unsuccessfully) to do liquid cooling on their amps. I may try a single dcon ported, but considering my EDs play just as loud and actually cleaner (since they are in the proper box) it doesn't seem worth the effort to build another box in the hope that it might play a couple dBs louder. I'll just use the dcons for another car. All I wanted to know was if with a smaller than recommended box would the amp I plan to use be a bad idea or not. I appreciate your trying to help, but I've been working on this for near 4 months now, and I almost went with another brand sub, but I went with these because of some positive reviews on the dcon's performance in a sealed box, not because I necessarily like a sealed box, but because I needed something small enough to be easily removed if I needed to. Had I known I would have to go ported from the get go, I would've went with two tens ported, but at this point it's either save them for a car that I can put a properly sized box in, only use one sub, or sell them and find something else. Sorry if I'm coming off like a dick but after fighting with this system for so long it's wearing on me. I just want it to be done, no more experimenting, just listening to it.

The first part I was talking about was the Pioneer subs I'd had a few years back. The buzzing sound was the subs bottoming on the 600w amp. Just barely moving the gain off of bottom and they were bottoming. By dropping down to an amp that matched their rated power the problem went away. There is such a thing as overdriving a pair of subs. At some point you exceed the sub's thermal and/or mechanical limits. The 600w amp I used on those Pioneers worked fine on other subs that required more power.The reason I can't go with two dcon 12s ported to spec is because it will not fit through the trunk opening. Someone suggested I assemble it inside the trunk, but the enclosure needs to be removable, and I need to be able to get at my battery and spare tire. The enclosure and amp will work with my ED subs so I may just go back to them and leave the dcons for my other car. The phase adjustment knob is not just 0 or 180 degrees, it's anything in between (30, 45, 60, 90, etc.). I've already used the 0 or 180 degree phase switch on my crossover, but they are still out of phase from the stock speakers. The audio systems amp also contains DSP that they used to phase align the speakers to the car. I'm just trying to match my sub to them. As far as doubling the speakers, yes simply doubling them will net you 3dB, but in this case I'm also halving the impedance so that's another 3dB. It may not be the case for every amp, but the A600 doubles the power (3dB) when the impedance is halved. Besides that there's still the matter of half the cone area being lost by going with one sub. The amount I'd gain by going with a single sub (right now each sub is short .35 cu ft) would be negligible compared to losing one of the drivers. The reason I am asking these questions is because, as I said earlier, whenever I had done an install for myself, I went completley to spec, both in terms of enclosure and power. This is also the first time I'm simply adding an amp & sub and integrating them into the factory system, which in this case is an amplified system and phase aligned for the car. Any other time I have always replaced the entire audio system, so phase issues and such weren't an issue because I had installed everything myself so I knew what I was dealing with. Here the factory has installed everything but the low end drivers. I wish I could replace the audio system completely, but first the car still has a lot of warranty left on it, and second this car has a touchscreen in the dash that not only controls the audio system, but also the temp controls, heated seats, and settings for the keyless entry, remote start, security, etc. Basically I'd be getting rid of alot of the positive things about the car.

No, it's wired correctly. All the speaker wires have red & black heatshrink at the ends to avoid that, made sure each driver is wired in series the same way (series/parellel for a final 4ohm load), and am using a barrier strip inside the enclosure instead of trying to stuff 2 wires under the speakers connectors. Borrowed a coworkers o-scope to set all the gains so that's not an issue. I've been working on this for around 4 months in my spare time and have rechecked it more times than I can count. The biggest difference was that up until this weekend I was using a sealed box built to spec, and it just didn't have enough output to overcome the vehicle's insulation. Apparently Aaron had a Mercedes (which uses the same frame as my Charger) and he said they were a bear to get output out of them. I'd love to do a spec box but if I did it wouldn't be removable and that's a must for me.

The box on the pioneers was a sealed with no leaks, 3/4" mdf, glued, screwed, and caulked. The headunit never went over 3/4 and was not overdriving the amp. But what I heard was not a musical sound, more like a buzzing plastic. They were two 150w 8ohm subs in parallel on a PPI A600. Once I got ahold of an A300 they sounded fine. As far as the power, I don't necessarily need 1100w, but that's the lowest power available with the phase adjustment feature. And I realize that even doubling your power only gets you 3dB, so a 300w difference is negligible as far as output, what I am worried about is if that extra power will push the drivers past it's thermal and/or mechanical limits. The reason I don't want to go to one sub is losing half my cone area. Anytime you double the amount of drivers you're looking at around a 6dB gain (or a perceived doubling of the volume). I used to install professional sound systems for 12 years, and have been putting in car systems for myself for around 22 years, so it's not new to me. But up until now I've always done enclosures to spec and matched the amps power to my drivers. But I this situation the enclosure needs to be removable, and I need to be able to adjust the sub's phase to bring it in line with the rest of the system. So that's why I'm in this situation. Like I said earlier if going to be too risky I have other uses for the subs in the future, but I hoped to not have them sit around for a couple years while I restore the other car.

The reason I asked is I tried running a pair of the old Pioneer IMPP subs at double their rated power once, and even with the gain on the bottom they would still bottom out. Mainly I was wondering if SSA underrated their subs to an extent. As far as the amp's power rating, the birth sheet should mean that's the actual output. I know PG's new thing is having their amp's out put be around 30% higher than the rating. As far as the box the only way I could do a spec box for a dcon is if I went with one instead of two. If it comes down to it, my old ED Kv series 12s will work with that power and that box, and I'll use the dcons for something else. I just wanted to make sure if I tried them out I wouldn't be frying the coils or popping the suspension.

Hi, I posted here awhile back having trouble getting any output from two dcon 12 d4s in a sealed box. I tried them out in a ported box I had for my ED subs and there was a definite increase in output. But there are a couple of things I need your opinions on. The box is not spec for the dcons. Basically it's a 2.8 cu ft shared sub chamber with a 3x13x40 slot port which should give it a tuning around 28Hz. So it's undersized by about .7 cu ft from spec. Now the main issue. I have been running these at 4ohms off of a PPI A600 and while it sounds good, the amp runs VERY hot. Granted it always has, as has any of the Art series I've run at 2ohms stereo or 4ohms bridged. The other part of this issue is the sub seems to still be slightly out of phase with the other speakers in the car. It's the Alpine system in the '11 Charger, and one of the specs mentioned that the speakers were phase aligned for the vehicle. My solution is to replace my PPI with a Phoenix Gold Ti2800.1 Class D mono amp. The Class D should help with the heat issue and the amp has a phase adjustment from 0-180 degrees so I can dial in the sub to match the other speakers. The problem is the amp is rated for 800w @ 1ohm and the birth sheet says 1100w @ 1ohm. My question is, with this box being undersized and the amp being almost double the rated power for a pair of dcon 12s, am I going to run into problems? Is an undersized ported enclosure similar to an undersized sealed enclosure in that it takes more power to run it? Has anyone run that much power into a pair of dcons? I need to know soon as I have a niece who coming tomorrow and can pick up the amp for me (it's 200 miles away). Any help is greatly appreciated.

If the output was lower it was minimal. I reasoned that because it was a mono amp that it may not make as much of a difference as with a stereo amp. This is only the second mono amp I've owned (a Kenwood KAC-714 was the other) so I don't have a lot of experience to draw from on them versus how things work on a stereo Class AB amp. This was also my first Class D amp and after using it I'll stick with AB amps from now on, although I've heard that Memphis's Class Ds sound pretty close to an AB amp. For me it didn't sound natural, like trying to make a guitar sound on a keyboard, if that makes any sense. As far as I was taught in school (electronics tech) Class D was usually reserved for oscillators, due to their using a square wave rather than a sine wave. For me they'll never have as true a sound as a Class A or AB amp, just like when people say you lose a lot of the warmth of sound going from a record to a CD, or a CD to an Mp3, due to the frequency compression. While it's not that bad, I do notice a difference when playing a CD and an Mp3 of the same track, the Mp3's sounds quieter and a bit muffled compared to a CD, & I always rip them at 320kbps or lossless, which should be at least equal to a CD. Anyways, since I'm not using the Earthquake amp either it's a moot point.

Okay, just going by what Joseph the owner told me. His techs were out and I talked to him about subs and how to get past the issues I was having. He was actually the one who suggested removing the sub & cover. The man's pretty knowledgeable, he worked in aerospace before starting Earthquake. Even if it is Xmech, that still bodes well for it's excursion capabilities. Say worst case the Xmax is 2-5mm more than the DCON, that and going from a sealed to ported should give me close to the same output. I also talked with the techs at Image Dynamics. Apparently my eD 13Ov.2s were made by ID and are comparable to their ID-12s. The tech modeled 2 ID-12s in a sealed box vs 1 IDQ-12 in a ported box. The Xmax difference between the ID & IDQ is only 1or 2mm, but output wise they were almost dead even, with each having a dB or 2 over the other at certain frequencies. And again that's with only 1-2mm difference between them. Looking at the excursion of the Earthquakes on videos vs that of the DCONs there is a visible difference, the one thing that does make me hesitate going with them is how much control does the sub have? Is that excursion due to a looser suspension than the DCONs? Will they just be SPL drivers and horrible at sound quality? Don't know. I have and Earthquake dealer but he's about 130 miles away, but he is on the way to family so I may check them out the next time I head that way. Like I said, at this point I'm gonna do what I can to make these work. I need to soundproof the rear deck, play with the crossover a bit, & I may try sealing off the factory sub hole around a 4" flared port. I believe that will give me a little boost over the 8" hole that is there now.

If I did go with a single sub ported, it'd probably be with something like an Earthquake DBXi-12 that has an Xmax around 90mm (peak to peak). With the DCON having a p-p Xmax of around 36mm, the Earthquake is 2 1/2 times longer. My reasoning is maybe the Xmax advantage would make up for loss of cone area. But I think that once I get my current system tuned a bit more, and eliminate the rear deck rattle, I think it'll be what I was looking for. I can't really afford (monetarily) to play hunches at this point either.

Update: Well I believe I have things figured out. The cause of the low output was that this trunk is more airtight than others I've had. So I removed the factory sub and the lower rear deck cover (under the rear deck & speakers) and got a huge boost in output. Since the trunk was sealed so well it was choking off the output of the subs. I have been using my eD subs since I posted last and decided to try the DCONs again and see how they sounded. Apparently the problem had a larger impact on the DCONs, probably due to their stiffer suspension (compared to the eDs). They really came to life, where before they had similar output, the DCONs now have a 3-4dB advantage over the eDs. Besides that I added a crossflow fan for my PPI and it now runs about normal, and I put an active crossover with a line driver ahead of it. That really cleaned up the sound, so now I believe the only thing left is playing around with crossover points and the amount of polyfill in the enclosure. The only issue I have with the sound now is it appears to favor 35Hz and below, and stuff like kick drums are suffering. I believe if I use less (or no) polyfill that should raise my 3dB down point. But either way it's day & night from where it was before. So if nothing else my experience should help people with Dodge Chargers & Chrysler 300s. If they have the factory sub in the car, removing it should give them more output from their aftermarket sub. If they don't have the factory sub, Dodge/Chrysler puts a cover over the sub hole so it would be best to remove that also.

Yeah, although the Earthquake had subsonic filter, low pass x-over, remote bass control, and barely got warm when running. The PPI runs pretty hot and basically only has a gain adjustment. I've got a dedicated x-over with a line driver and rmt bass cntrl on the way, should be here tomorrow. Then I can start tuning a little better. Hopefully I hear something from someone on here about the subs so I can figure out my next move.