sqguy

That is not what I said that wattage is backwards, the new Kicker is 4x70 CEA. Look at some of the V12 MRV Alpine amps they show both ratings, here is a section out of a manual: SPECIFICATIONS Power Output: RMS Continuous Power (at 12.0V, 20 Hz to 20 kHz) Per channel into 4 ohms MRV-F353 (CH-1

I said this and I don't know how you get IB and ported at the same time from the bold part, that is just retarded if this is an "enthusiast site." So a sealed sub is "sealed AND box?" Ported is "Ported AND box?" I never said "IB ported" or "at the same time." If I saw 'at same time' I would ask how that was done and how it worked. I would imagine not much would come out of the port, but in fact people have run IB and ported the whole trunk into the car and I have no idea how well it works as I never have. Because few people actually vent the subs to the outside for true IB due to obvious reasons. You are just looking to attack something out of context. Context of the post is subs can play low, even $15 dollar ones in more than one configuration, but many people don't run them that way. I'm sorry if that was not obvious, it sure looks plain as day to me. With the huge goofy posts you guys made over the weekend I just figured you had a few beers or something. In the English language the word AND means: Together with or along with; in addition to; as well as. Used to connect words, phrases, or clauses that have the same grammatical function in a construction. Your phrase that he quoted was I used to run pyramid 10's at 30hz IB and ported. I don't know about you. But when running an IB set-up. When have you ever seen anyone say I run a 30hz IB set up? That 30hz was most likely related to the word ported. Therefore because of the conjunction, you made the mistake of poor grammar. Therefore Mrray and ///M5 etc. Were completely right in assuming that you were saying IB and ported together. Because I said "at" 30hz not "a" 30hz as you put it . The IB and ported refer to running each at 30hz, in this case a setup capable of producing 30Hz music. I'm not a grammar teacher by far, but it is still stupid to assume in this context even if it is incorrect. You are just trying in any way to call me an idiot and in this case it really is not there. I have no problem saying I am wrong when I am, I'm far from perfect but not an idiot either. Are you going to slap M5 also? Look what he posted: "Perhaps you should tell us how you would be happy with 100w on your fronts but 70w isn't enough....oh, excuse me you said you'd be fine off 75w. So you are implying you can hear the difference between a 70w amp and a 75w?? ROFL." Again, did not read my post about how the amps are rated. Its just nitpicky crap like I see on some other sites I stay away from, but not had that issue here until now. Maybe I was unclear in some statements, that still does not warrant the treatment a few of you have given me instead of simply asking for clarification.

Most of the stuff was from people not reading my posts and replying. I don't recall the last time I got hunted down like that. To assume someone does not know what running ported or IB subs is? And then quote the post and cut out the part that explains the use? To say there is no audible difference between an old school amp at 75wrms@12v rated and another new amp at 70wrms CEA rated? To say people who run HU power all get high efficiency speakers to make it work? I don't really care, it just reflects the nature of users on this site to everyone that reads it. People can make up their own mind. Most people come on here for help not ridicule, but the place is what you make it. My posts are worth just what you paid for them, if they don't make sense then ask. Anyway, check this out where Pioneer actually shows you how you will be -5dB at 30Hz with their max size box for sealed or ported with a 12". http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pio/pe/i...8TSW3001D24.pdf You can't even quote yourself right when comparing the two amps you listed. AND WHAT YOU ACTUALLY POSTED So what is your point? Are you saying CEA does not rate at 14.4V? http://www.crutchfield.com/S-m32Z01XeE2w/popups/cacomp.html My kicker is 70x4 at 4 ohms CEA. Is that the same power as two of these: http://www.linearpower.com/detail/1501.html If you think so, you have never used a good old amp and should try it. There is a significant difference between 12.5 and 14.4 volt ratings or nobody would put a larger alternator in their car for a big amp. (not counting any under-ratings many old amps had)

Mrray13, The first post you keep quoting bold part: I said this and I don't know how you get IB and ported at the same time from the bold part, that is just retarded if this is an "enthusiast site." So a sealed sub is "sealed AND box?" Ported is "Ported AND box?" I never said "IB ported" or "at the same time." If I saw 'at same time' I would ask how that was done and how it worked. I would imagine not much would come out of the port, but in fact people have run IB and ported the whole trunk into the car and I have no idea how well it works as I never have. Because few people actually vent the subs to the outside for true IB due to obvious reasons. You are just looking to attack something out of context. Context of the post is subs can play low, even $15 dollar ones in more than one configuration, but many people don't run them that way. I'm sorry if that was not obvious, it sure looks plain as day to me. With the huge goofy posts you guys made over the weekend I just figured you had a few beers or something. My next post, note the bold parts: (#44) Your post right after: (#45) yes, we know that. BUT you stated, and i quote, our question is how in the hell did you run those subs BOTH IB and ported? i don't believe anyone here, or anywhere for that matter, has heard of a ported IB setup. could you please educate us? wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee And so what did I post after the "you so funny" and again you ask the same question about IB and porting. You did not read my post.

Most of the stuff was from people not reading my posts and replying. I don't recall the last time I got hunted down like that. To assume someone does not know what running ported or IB subs is? And then quote the post and cut out the part that explains the use? To say there is no audible difference between an old school amp at 75wrms@12v rated and another new amp at 70wrms CEA rated? To say people who run HU power all get high efficiency speakers to make it work? I don't really care, it just reflects the nature of users on this site to everyone that reads it. People can make up their own mind. Most people come on here for help not ridicule, but the place is what you make it. My posts are worth just what you paid for them, if they don't make sense then ask. Anyway, check this out where Pioneer actually shows you how you will be -5dB at 30Hz with their max size box for sealed or ported with a 12". http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pio/pe/i...8TSW3001D24.pdf

Better than: "wt sub u use mine z gr8!...." I don't bother with proper grammar for posting; takes too much time. I'm doing good not to have mistyped words all over.

I was too lazy to quote everything when I got bombed with 20 things, that may have helped clarify. My infinity subs actually say in the manual they can run IB at half power. I think more can but will not admit it, ones with the right Vas/Fs/Q. Marketing people that lie about box size certainly are not going to want you to use the driver where it could be blown easier by a clueless user.

Yes, lets move on.

You came up with the IB and ported together thing, somehow assuming I don't know what IB or ported is? Look at M5's last post he quoted it with the same line as you. You guys are just on the attack for the fun of it. I've run IB every time I had a vehicle that could, boxes are a waste of space/time/effort for my use.

Right here, IB and then ported in two different cars. Don't know what that box was tuned at, I set it to 30 or so but then changed it a bunch of times by ear. The book I had then was for home speakers so it was not exact for subs in a car, and pyramid had no published specs. I'm really busy or I would have pulled the amp. If I turn the subs up enough to feel it then the highs turn to static, and that is with too much bass. It is far from mind bending loud, it needs to go almost that loud just to be heard well with the windows down. It only needs to keep up with good bass, I'm not after loud. I've setup my cars that way for a long time so I could feel some deep bass and the music sounds good, no louder than that. Only thing left is the alpine xover I should put my old one in and try it or bypass it, but doubt that is the issue. Well, I have an 880prs to run in there now anyway.

our question is how in the hell did you run those subs BOTH IB and ported? i don't believe anyone here, or anywhere for that matter, has heard of a ported IB setup. could you please educate us? You guys sure make a mountain out of a mole hill. Just where did I say "both"? If you read my post I tell you IB and later ported, so what I changed cars. Point is I had strong output out of $15 subs either way...you guys had to say you could make any sub play 30hz and yeah I did it with $15 subs a long time ago. It was great fun, but they did wear out in about two summers so had to keep replacing them.M5- Why a 4cf box? That was all the car could hold and so I tried 4 subs in it. I progressively tuned it lower until it worked the way I wanted. It was loud with 4 subs and just like today, it sounded like crap. Party music then was dance music, and it had plenty of bass as well as other music. I'm not going to argue taste, the chicks liked it and that was priority. True a lot of rock was poor in bass, but genesis/phil c was good for example. Again if you read my post, I said 75w at 12v and so just how are new amps rated today? Yes, not at 12v. What is the kicker at 12v, 40w? I read that but can't verify it, but sounds likely. I'm not lying to you, it is weak in this setup for whatever reason maybe not the amp I am not yet sure. 4x70 sounds pretty weak for SQ anyway right? You can make stuff up and poke fun at me all you want, I guess I did not realize by reading many posts here that 100% of the people here are learned enthusiasts. I still stand by my statement that many people think 30hz is low. When you talk to people with limited SQ experience you will run into it, in fact you hammer those spl people that say anything close to 'sq' all the time just like you are me here. Sorry, the only thing in my car walmart ever sold was the amp wiring kit. Then again I would not want to offend the enthusiasts that brag about the $10 mids or tweeters in their active setup, as they must be idiots too. Price has little to do with how good your setup can sound, more money may make it easier and more durable no doubt about that. I'm sorry if boston and infinity and kicker are crap in your book but that is what I have at the moment. I don't really care what name is on them. Audio-Neon- Yes, but how many people running HUs went out and bought high efficiency speakers? I say 1%. Sure it can be done, I'm saying people just run HU power and it causes system tuning issues with big subs...namely they cross the HU high because it has no power and then have a real big midbass hole, then run the sub higher, then lose 30hz because of the roll off. The kicker I have is 70x4 CEA at 4 ohms, so what 14.4V? It is 85x4rms at 2 ohms but I run it at 4. Most old amps are rated at 12-12.5v, maybe the ones I used were underrated but they had more nut than this. The sub side is good. I'll let you know if I can get the car under the wrench and swap amps. You could be right in a way, because this kicker barely has more power than the 2x35 alpine 3518 I had at 2ohms on the same speakers before. Yes, I learned about T/S a long time ago so I could make boxes for customers, that is still no excuse for manufacturers instructions or the fact that people run them that way for whatever reason. I hear them go by my house daily, boom boom boom and no rumble. How can music not have to do with how the sub sounds? One song hits at 40hz and plays loud and the next song hits at 30 and you can't hear the bass, happens every time if your sub rolls off. A small box sub with lots of roll off is very difficult to blend into any system without processing. Depending on your xover slope it usually is a one note wonder. Sure sources are different, and big subs tend to make them more different. You guys are nitpicking some special situation or telling me how to correct it. I'm saying people do it daily and when they ask something here many of them will have this setup/issues. Most put the smallest box in they can. I actually like it, because I could tell the song by the bass track from my cheap subs a mile away at night. I would hate it if some kid had that today near my house. Now I hear a 'boom boom' and he is gone. Or maybe people with low subs are nicer I don't know. None the less I am pretty sure all this posting was a total waste of my time.

I put dielectric grease on the fuse under hood, I've had problems with them getting moisture/etc in them and then they get hot, limit current, blow, etc. It may depend on what style you have and closer you get to max of fuse more likely problems will happen. But certainly do above post and don't run without a fuse on a big wire. It can burn your car down or blow stuff up.

IB = Infinite baffle, gosh everyone knows that....you so funny! Pyramid made paper 10s in the late 80s to whenever. I ran two and then 4 IB and they worked great. They were very close in output to the pyledriver 10s, if someone remembers those they were killer. The pyle magnets hardly fit in the cutout. Then I got a hatchback and could not run IB, so I made a 4cf box that filled the whole hatch with four of the 10s, it sucked. Then I took a pair out and it was better, put a big port in the top and it was better yet and close to the four IB in other cars. They could play 30hz, not sure if they could get far under that but they would play 30hz music with some authority. I should dig out some 90s music and see how low it goes. Oh yeah, back then you had to read a book to port a sub, there was no software easily available and most subs had no T&S. So you did it my ear. I don't know where you guys have been, but kids run the highs off HUs all the time and think that is normal. How much midbass can a HU make at 17wrms? About nobody runs under 100w in the 8" midbass thread here. I could not run a high side to my liking on anything less than a 75rms/ch@4ohm@12v amp. This 70rms/ch kicker does not get it, at 14+V I am sure. Kids all got spl boxes that can't get low and weak highs. Here I thought all these new common subs could get low in a little box and I tried, its all bs. I don't know how you guys can argue, you still need that same big box unless you get an expensive sub and usually run big power to force it to put out. If you don't have DSP or a parametric that huge roll off kills your tuning. I have always had larger issues with tuning in midbass and bass in doing this since the late 80s, I'm not sure where some of you guys have been. I can get a good pair of coax to play the highs reasonable, but if the sub does not blend you hear it right away....you change music and the bass gets loud/quiet, very common situation. I guess if you listen to one type of music and it works for that, then hey who cares but I listen to various things.

My whole point was that people have high tuned boxes and consider 30hz low, not that subs would not do it. I said in the recommended box they would not do it. If people want them like that, use the instructions, buy a little manufactured box, or have no midbass and use the sub to cover...still 30 is low to them. I used to run pyramid 10s at 30hz IB and ported, and they worked great for $15 each. Still considering trying the 15s. Some cheap subs work great until they wear out or blow, then you need a better sub for your use. I agree recommendations are often marketing (I hate marketing and purposely don't buy products with bs marketing) but I was just playing around trying to make a small box work; giving them the benefit of the doubt. Since tons of subs supposedly work in small boxes I had to hit on one right...no. I don't like small sealed so have not used one in my car for a long time, and looks like nothing has changed. Still must need a special driver to get lows in a smaller sealed, guess I did not realize they were all making the same old stuff with larger surrounds and bigger plastic motor covers....thought maybe some new tech had trickled down from the best drivers and I was wrong. I ran them in winISD, they need more cf to be a sub. In my case the infinity seem to work well in 3+cf each.

So anyone who follows the manufacturer's instructions/buys subs at a major electronics retailer is an idiot? I'm not going to argue it; I've used the stuff, heard it in people's vehicles, and that average stuff is what most people buy. You and your friends might have <30Hz and that is great, but most people don't and their stuff will not make it. We will have to disagree.

These were car subs in a car, mass brand names not real expensive, only had 300rms on it. Infinity ref, sony P5, digital audio (audiobahn?), etc. on a nak crossover and ppi amp. I'd hate to think I have been operating subs incorrectly for 20+ years. No doubt a very expensive sub can do better, but that is not what most people have thus my hypothesis that many people think 30 is low, indeed maybe the lowest. Better results could have been had with larger enclosures sure, but that minimum/recommened size is what they listed and I was at or over it. And you know as well as I that today it is all about the tiny box. Come on guys, you see this all the time in the forums: "What is wrong with my sub it does not sound right?" "What are your xover points?" "80Hz" "Turn it down to 50 and try it." "I can't hear it if I turn it below 80." I get as low as I can, but I don't lose any sleep over it just don't enjoy it as much if it can't thunder. I was spoiled by great IB setups in the 80s and so glad I have a car that will hold one again. Also there is no way I can run over 1cf box in this car without pulling it out all the time.

"Should play," but I see piles of subs that can't gut under 30 in their recommended sealed. I've had piles of them. You end up forcing them and don't get much sound out of them.

Sealed doesn't have more roll off than ported, it just typically begins to roll off at a high freq but a shallower slope. Get down into the really low stuff and the sealed will have more and better output than the ported setup which falls off quite steeply when it begins to roll off. Don't want to nitpick but depends on your definition of low, mine is say plays down to 30Hz which a ported can do better than sealed for the same (or limited) power right? If you have the extra room, and yes under tuning it will unload and may be harder to get right SQ from it. Seems to me a lot of people think 50Hz is low (maybe not you guys or so much on this site), sometimes figure I am one of the oddballs wanting 30Hz by the stuff I've read on boards? I was looking at the IDMAX, it sure seems to get low sealed in the chart I saw but they are not free. A flat box for that sub would have to be built bulletproof and the sub is deep as well so maybe inverted mount. I don't need louder so can't see any benefit. I generally dislike sealed but I've never run a low Q quite like that thing.

The hifonics I have sitting here is a z600 zeus with TIP outputs, maybe late 90s I have not looked. Kicker is newer with those strange pointy endcaps. I will check it out, I usually do not have time to read the datasheets and check into things that closely. I had a new 8000 5ch hifonics I was going to run against the kicker but never did, it was rated at a little lower power and I finally dropped it. It would not fit between my subs....not really a nice place for the kicker or any amp. I see plenty of vibration issues in amps but I had little choice. I did mount the Kicker on isolation pads that also elevate it since the whole bottom is sink. Yeah the old made in US amps are built like trucks, that is why they still work today. The new smd is harder to work on as well.

Why is that? I've repaired both, I don't test for power but they both work fine. Don't care for the Kicker in my car but it could be my setup or use as it does work ok. There is little difference in most amps in similar price ranges these days, the warranty you get is pretty important given how they break more than old amps did. I have not used a Hifonics in my car for quite a while but the service is very nice on the phone. Actually I have seen more blown Kickers, but they certainly are popular. I have a 350 Kicker sitting here with a blown power supply, I'll take a closer look at it. Have a Hifonics too but its a little older.

I just got a factory sealed refurb Pioneer 880 for about 200 plus ship, I figure it has had the bugs worked out. It looks like new.

My .02 I like the infinity's sound, nice highs but they could use a little more bass. Ok unless you need extra bass in your install. The Crunch is Maxxsonics who makes Hifonics, Autotek, Performance Technique, and others. I would rate Hifonics on par with kicker I guess. Crunch might be off on power ratings but have not heard of them being junk for the price. That is dynamic watts so peak, they actually do not list rms so I bet the 1400 is maybe 4x80@4ohm or something. They are cheap for a reason, I think they are made in China but then again the Alpine MRP also is. A lot of people are talking about the Cerwin Vega amps for low dollar as they are made with Arc boards I heard. Yes used you can rule, I have an infinity 111x4rms@4ohm I got for <$50 once. I got an insignia 600rms for <$40 nib and those are shipped prices. Insignia is really cheap too, but they work until you can get better. So hey, just shop one out and you can bail on it and get your money back if you don't trash it, even then sometimes broken amps go for more than working ones. Cheap amps do tend to break more often but near any amp is better than none. The Lightning Audio Strike series amps are not bad either. I have one here I will sell soon that is a little beat from being under a seat, they are larger amps. It is a 500 staggered amp that is 40x2 front and 2x100 rear, but the rear bridges to 400rms mono, all at RMS 4 ohm ratings. Kenwoods also go cheap sometimes, I would much rather have one of those two than some no name. Think I have a 300 lightning strike to let go too and a 1kw if that deal falls through.

You will be close, I don't know how efficient the alpine is but should be pretty good. I would try it and see, if the voltage drops at max output then you will have to beef it up. If you are going to hammer it hard I'd upgrade electrical to get the most out of it.

How many amps is your alternator and what kind of battery (and age) do you have...and what size wire are you putting to amp?

The few I have seen ran RCA HU to the master, then RCA master to slave. You have to have a feedback loop from one to the other (in the RCA connection) to have them work together properly. Some others have RCA from HU to each amp, like MTX does. They do not appear to have a feedback so not sure how they work that way. The feedback allows the slave to match the master, without it if something is amiss you will get smoke. However MTX only uses one wire from each amp, most use two. It depends on how the amp is built as to what affects it/how it is wired. Seems strange a HU install could cause anything, you should know where the RCA go that hook into the amp you are installing, unless the HU was emitting something odd in the RCA. I was not there so not passing judgment (!) just sounds strange. Strapping can always cause smoke if not just so. Long as you have someone covering it, then at least you are cool.