sqguy

Just way to busy to play with car but maybe soon with extended summer over, just have to clear other projects out of the garage. Anyway, I gave up on the weak midbass and turned my subs up high to cover for them, to * with directionality. I cranked the parametric around to boost the 30Hz pretty hard, that washed out the boom the subs will get at ~100Hz so response is smoother overall....sound is better. I am half looking for a crossover that will bandpass 8s since I don't have anything that can.

$320, holy shart is that for real? I do all my own stuff but you could buy a lot of equipment for 3 bills plus. I think I would shop around some more and at least find a place that tosses in some lube at that price.

And you people were nit-pick bitchin because I didn't carpet the little bit of my black painted baffle you can see--in my cheap little car's trunk!

I picked up 4 used (store returns) infinity 12" DVC reference subs on ebay this spring that are IB in my car now for <$40 each tmd. I ran one in a sealed and a ported box and the 1.25cf box was too small for my liking (I want 30Hz not 50) but the sub worked fine on a ppi 75x2rms and went fairly loud for listening/driving. Could not overpower it in a box with half its rated rms. Picked up even cheaper an explod P5 12, the black pentagon 1300w one. It got somewhat low in a small box, lower than the infinity did in same box. Still nothing like my IB setup but not bad for what it is. I stuffed the 1.1cf recommended sealed box and could even turn my crossover way up and nothing above about 100Hz really comes out of the explode, but it was dropping big at 30 too. Note that I do hate sony. The explode sounded worse when I put a quality 300wrms amp in and hammered it harder, it got to be a one note wonder I think with more power. I imagine the infinity could be tuned more. I know of a NIB SW6200 12" dvc Eclipse for sale. Also ran a 10" MTX 4500 on that ppi amp and it worked pretty well in a mtx .85cf sealed box that is recommended for it. Had a nice sound for one ten and worked good with that amp, I think it was rated for 225rms. Kept it here for a spare it worked so nice quality-wise for the few dollars I have into it. Not sure if this helps you but that is what I tried, and I like some thump but quality more so.

Here you can get what they call "One Wire" alternators, typically a GM as its most common. Anyway, you can mount it on about anything like a car, tractor, go cart....to a drive shaft even in a hotrod or something. The regulator and all that are inside so all you do is ground the case and run the big hot wire to your battery. If you can't get one then I would investigate how yours works, does it have external regulator/etc. You could mount another and just add those items. The alternators should regulate themselves to the draw you put on them....should run at 13.5v or whatever just like the one does now except could handle twice the load in amps. You will have to get enough wrap around the pulley with the belt, you may have to add an idler to do that and of course a longer belt to fit. Another way is to add a pulley onto something like the crank, on top of stock one, then run just the new alternator to that with an adjustable bracket you can tighten or put another tensioner on. They use huge belts but that is how many kits add superchargers for example.

What kind of isolator....how much amperage does it handle? If your front battery stays up and you run the HU remote to the amp it should get 13+V on the remote....there is very little current so gauge on that should matter little. I can see it turning off at 10v maybe....but then it should work fine for a song (if charged up) until the rear battery dies

I agree, that is why I used 4 subs because they sound nice, barely move, and have good output at normal levels. But when I want maximum output that is how I tune a system at that point. I don't use it often, but I still want the thing to pound in a good sounding way; to be capable of that if I feel so inclined...lol. So far I can't even hit xmax with mine...but can't afford time/funds to try lesser subs right now. They could possibly work better if more efficient.

IB sub is a hard one. You make a sub with stiff suspension and light cone to have good control and high power handling, and you get a high Fs sub that does not want to make sub sounds. You make the cone heavy to lower Fs and its harder to control at higher excursion, the sound can get muddy, etc. You put a stiffer suspension on it and lose efficiency, you put a larger motor on and it hits xmax faster. More xmax just makes it all worse. Someone correct me if I screwed any of that up. When I do it I try to size the driver to the power I will use. Ideally you want to just hit xmax once in a while with the power you use, then you know you are getting the most you can. That assumes the driver will work well IB to its xmax, and some lower power subs can be more efficient for more db per wattage. I have looked a lot and still not found a good description of IB subs in technical terms, when I ran them a lot it was trial and error. My infinity seem to work ok but I have nothing to compare them to in this setup. They seem to like 50Hz and less.

I can't beat that SLS so far. The woofers I look at are weak bottomed like this dayton and the 8" subs peak at 100 but then drop off on the high side. Plus the subs tend to have that large backside/depth that might not fit a door that well (making me look back at woofers). I almost posted a few days ago, I saw one of those shallow 10" subs that had a fairly flat response, but would that be a big hole in a door or what. Here it is http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cf...tnumber=264-862 check out the response from 40-400Hz. Qts is a little low and it costs more. Then again a door might not be much cf for a 10 and there are ways of tightening it up.

Just saying in the response chart they look pretty weak in bass and you said good bass for the smaller one....even 2 or 3 way needs to get down to 100Hz right? If the RS would work I would consider it due to lower cost because it would get delivered to my house sooner, and otherwise looks promising....I don't need perfect in this car, just pretty good. Is cabin gain a factor here? Yeah I am thinking 250-400 tops, as high in that range as sounds ok but I've never tried 8s in front before....or 3s....or 2s like I am going to. And if it don't work I am blaming all you guys for sure

I was looking at the RS225 8", but it also rolls off a lot on the bottom end? Even by 100Hz it is way down in db. (like 4-5db; as far as mid bass use) The better 8s (like the SLS) seem to peak at 100Hz and are fairly flat above, roll off less below. Some subs peak higher at 100 and roll off higher and lower. Seems like a point to consider if using for range of say roughly 50-80Hz up to 250-500Hz or more? Or do you expect to EQ it out? I was looking at it for my mids but this looks like a problem....then again charts don't always tell the whole story. But if I run subs up to 50, I need the 8s there and ready above that which would mean huge output at the 200-300Hz peak even running 100Hz and up. http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/295-376g.pdf

It appears to be a sony part 655144901 and that is why its hard to find. Does not cross to anything on sites I found and can't find a place to look up by specs yet. I have found a bunch of posts saying not to substitute on factory parts like this, naturally. I imagine putting all of them in would be the right way, but 15x6=$90 and I can near buy one for that and might as well toss it. Let me see if I have a pic of it, there are not very many parts in there. Here is an ebay, item 170152581038

Anyone see this new driver? http://www.madisound.com/catalog/PDF/830970.pdf and http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_i...roducts_id=8267 What I was thinking if I ran 2 sets of 2" (instead of one 3") is to mount them together vertical and attach to/into kick panels. That way they could be angled/aimed to say between the front headrests and not take hardly any foot room in this smaller car. However this 2" may not have a power handling issue requiring double drivers. I do see a little bump at 3kHz....any comments? Not had time to read up more on arrays...not that I want to really, but how do all these MTM speakers work then? Might have to run the 8" up past 300 for a 2" though, not sure what effect that would have. Would it be better to get more of a sub 8 that rolls off as it goes by 300Hz and higher? Many of them seem to really roll off after peaking around a 100Hz and have a lot of db loss as frequency climbs. I am just *guessing* the 8 needs to hit 100Hz hard but not much above that...and could be completely wrong, then the flat curve like the SLS 8" would be better.

This is part: http://221.253.80.196/en/prod/semicon/pdf/data_ekv550e.pdf Naturally I don't want to have $30+ship into it if that kind of failure would usually have other issues to repair that I'm not capable of. Nothing looks like it got hot but I don't know what would cause this. I guess two 40a fuses do not protect much...doh, or maybe it's a fault in design. Sony will repair for 100, you can buy a refurb for 100...in fact the refurbs are all over the place so this must be a fine amp...but figure it would be a good little project instead of trashing it. Have no idea how well they work, I'm not super impressed with my Kicker so far but since the whole system is new I can't call out the amp alone...but they seem to be in the same price range as this Sony. Kicker does work ok, just wish I would have wired it up to my old drivers for comparison. Also it really drops power with the car off.

Right, or use more subs. I've had good luck with 4 10s IB but that was listening to music with lots of bass, and not running the bass that much louder than the rest of the system just to make noise. Once you hit xmax you are done, and it should not take that much wattage to do that typical is maybe half the sub's rms rating at most. But, you are moving air and that is what gives good bottom, spl is so-so. My 4 12s shake, play 30Hz like nothing and will go lower. I would recommend you start with twice the subs you would use in a box, maybe more if you really need output. I have the midbass problem; the subs are great under 50Hz and you feel it....but then my comps can't make enough 100Hz to keep up. I can turn the subs up higher Hz, but then you loose some of the huge under 50Hz because they always roll off slow but roll off just the same. Plus they start getting directional if you are looking for sq. On the other hand I would need a huge likely ported box to play the 30Hz I can now. Make sure you get subs that will work well IB, some will not. They have to be good at returning to center without a box. Obviously you don't need real high wattage subs, hitting xmax all the time will break or wear them out you will never blow the vc with normal use.

lol, I have been bothering M5 about 8s in front for a while. First I thought I'd try an 8 woofer and run it higher 2 way but the off axis kills that, now want to try an 8 low and a full range (M5 suggestion and I like it). I also thought it would be nice to have an 8" sub, but those are valid issues plus fitting if there are depth limits. It depends on how you run it, figure if you run it 50Hz and higher it should not need to move huge air for SQ/daily driver use. ANeonRider has peerless sls 8s in the doors and likes them, I looked at dayton quatro too but its somewhat heavy. An 8 has to have an easier time of it than a 6.5 is my reasoning, so while huge cool drivers are so temping...for normal use they may not be needed here. More of a woofer than a sub is what I have been looking at, though the two I listed above are pretty respectable. Also with the 2way I want to try the 8 will likely need to go up over 300Hz; most 8 subs peak at 100Hz while the sls is fairly flat. Not sure how much difference that makes until I research it more. I don't think the weight would be that much of an issue unless you use something huge (heavy) like the sub pictured. It would be close to the hinges so the door should swing fairly normally with a moderate 8". Just my .02.

How about this, I found a set of these dvc 8s in my storage room: http://www.radioshack.com/graphics/uc/rsk/...01027_PM_EN.pdf I was told pioneer made optimus stuff but don't know, these look like old school IB subs and are about 20yr old still in box. On winisd in 2cf or more they show +6db at 60-70Hz, -3db at 40Hz, +1db at 200....kind of peaky. Had a set of old boston 8s I think I sold, can't find them, figures. Anyway, I could swap the 8s out later to better ones but get it running now just buying 3s if these 8s would work reasonably.

ANeonRider, yes you are the one I have your project page saved here someplace...you have the SLS 8s that I am leaning towards. So far I think I can run an 8 like you are from 50 to ~300Hz, then a Fostex 3" hopefully all the way up with no tweeter if I kick mount and aim well according to ///M5. Later might add a small tweet if needed for 10K and up in kick or pillars....but the 3" will be the only major custom mount and hopefully not that visible. Then the 4 12s will run under 50Hz, they work well there though I may change out drivers at some point...wanting less weight, maybe I should try two 15 IB since these 12s seem to easily handle anything this amp can give. That whole IB deal actually sets the back of the car lower and not liking that at all; rather have lighter subs that get closer to maxing out. >> I see the SLS has a near flat curve from 70-600Hz but drops off a little faster under 70, slightly less peak db. The charts...the dayton and the TB have near identical curves actually, the charts are much different.

Yes it looks more like a hardcore sub than a musical speaker, yet if the 3" runs down to 350Hz or so(?) then I don't need that musical of a woofer either like if it had to run up to 2K or more. Looking around, I'm impatient and keep having to spend on appliances lately. How about this dayton, the curve looks perfect it peaks at 90-100Hz but does drop like a rock by 500Hz....not sure if that would be good or bad but must put out serious midbass being that efficient at 100 Hz. It is peaky looking. Most of the woofer 8s are dropping fast at 100Hz and down so not likely to reach 50Hz that well. You don't get cabin gain on front door speakers do you? Seems like this one would be serious punch in the front doors, that would be strange. http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/295-545s.pdf

How about that TB 8 on sale at PE, it has a 12mm xmax. But the qts is .30, vas .81cf....would it work IB in a small door with no enclosure? I was looking at ones that were qts ~.5 or better, or would it handle 75wrms or so...or sound like ****? Now they say the Q may not matter for IB, some work ok and they use them in HT. Also if it does not have to play under 50hz maybe it would have better control? The SLS is qts .54 and 8.5mm xmax. The TB sure looks HD.

Boston Acoustics RC820 http://www.bostonacoustics.com/manuals/RCManual.pdf I understand it would be stupid to use the comps with 8s when I don't need to; plus I'd have to HP the 5x7, BP the 8....no point to it and no room. If I want the 8 for bass I might as well run the 3 because you guys have done it and it works. I'll just have to hash out the install. Sounds like in the kicks is the best place? And I will need some good angle on them too. Wow that is a mean Seas driver alright, for equivalent coin too. I have a 6.5 here but don't know what it is. It is no Seas like that one. That Peerless SLS 8" and the Fostex FF85K look nice, or might have been what another guy used on here. TB has some nice 3" on paper that are cheap but how do they work? For SQ that 3 would be the most important driver in the car.

I was reading on that array stuff, but a guy put two sets of 2" full range in his dash and said it worked well...I'll let it go if it's a problem. Yeah windy post but thought I would post the issues I seem to have with the setup should someone else try it, if its any help. If I ran 8s with the 5x7 then obviously they would just be a woofer but only room for one in there...not going to build that much stuff in this car. If I ran 2" I should be able to run an 8 up to say 1K with out axis issues right? It may be harder to get right. The 2" I found go up to 20K. I thought two sets because of the low wattage ratings but 3" is too. Why do the 5x7 suck? They are the same $200 or whatever set as the 5.25 or 6.5/etc, should have 6" round cone area or so. I think they are just too small, I have never had a 5.25 that made any bass and lots of 6.5s are not that good either. You come off a good sub and tiny drivers can't keep up. No I never had comps that cost more than these....I'll use something else. I think most people cross the subs higher, then it is not such an issue. If I do that I might as well put 8s or 6x9 in the back deck as its already directional in the subs. I'll find a way. I know an 8 will do it with ease but the 5x7 sounds great from 100Hz up. And if you mean oval speakers suck in cars, I've never seen it in the 20+ years I've done this. I think audiophiles just want something to point at. In the old days people didn't have subs and good 6x9 were required for any bass. I ran 8s full range and they sounded the same. Or maybe I'm full of it and you know better, but that has been my experience. I want to get it close before I do any EQing so it has better balance, and don't have EQ in there yet. Maybe its just this car and its doors who knows.

Now that I have run it for a while I'm figuring it out. I think I am out of power on the subs; if you divide 420 into 4 thats 105wrms each and they are roughly 150 when IB...that is why they freak out well before xmax; the amp is clipping. Do not appear to have a power issue then either, but it is pretty loud in the car and tons of bottom like I wanted. Not near as loud outside the car, that surprised me. Oh yeah, you feel it. What ticks me is if I had the time I would buy 4 cheap 12s I have run before for ~$100 and see how they worked. I might get to xmax on those and have higher efficiency....and they would weigh less in my car. Still not liking how heavy this setup with no box is....just didn't realize until I had them all mounted. Maybe a 15/18" or two would have worked, ah well 12s are cool and its done. This is the first time I have used 4 relatively high power subs IB at once, this kicker is junk or it certainly takes more to get them going...thinking the latter. Still have the mid bass weakness even with both sets of 5x7. The comps don't have as much bass as the cheap ones in the rear...and those I taped the backs up so they didn't top out as easy. Have two different sets of better 5x7 or some 6x9 I can put in back but...not going to solve the problem anyway. I measured roughly and the rears are very close to the same distance to my ears as the front comps....I just keep them faded down a little. I can run it with the subs at higher Hz ok, they get a little directional but I would rather not. Still think the 8s would be best in front hammering 100Hz like it should be, but mounting a mid/tweeter is going to be difficult in my stealth setup any way I do it. Otherwise I can try to deaden the doors, but doubt they will do what I need anyway. They sound good though, aside from my poor tweeter mount I will try to change when I deaden, they are very clean and smooth at any volume I can get out of 65/ch wrms they have. I would like to add the 8s to them really, but can't. Off axis seems good with the inverted dome tweets. I put in an old remastered VH CD and it rocked really nice...not much bass in it so I dialed the subs up but very clean sounding. Eddie sounded really nice. My latest idea is still the 8s and then run two 2" each side instead of one 3". Looks like mounting would be better in the kick area. Maybe after all my summer stuff gets wrapped up I can get back to it...at least I have fairly good tunes now. I read someplace you should cut the highs out of all but one when you array small drivers...would that apply here? Yeah, now my microwave died too.

Lol, yes. I will post on that again now that I am getting used to it. Even 2 sets of 5x7 can't get it done.

Sorry I was not clear, I mean midrange price. Then leave them in the car instead of having to take them out if that is an issue....I mean I don't get fancy with stuff if I am dropping the car soon; I make it easy to take out, no custom stuff, use a sub box that comes out, mount amps easy to pull, often put factory size drivers in so I can swap them back or not put the effort into custom installing a different size. I don't mind taking stuff out but if you don't have the time and place to do it then...well its up to you, anyway you want to do it just a suggestion. I like my Boston comps, they are smooth and some of the most expensive I have used in a while. They are the better ones, I think the sx not sure now. Funny how I want to swap them for home drivers though...they don't want to make enough bass but its the 5x7 size, I want to run 8s in front. Going to deaden the doors though and see what that does. I like Infinity too they usually run soft domes but the cheaper line blows under abuse and don't always have good bass response. Depends on what you do with them. I've had some older kenwood comps that were good others that were not, most were bright and good for installs that needed that. Best to take the time and pain to listen for yourself. The high dollar stuff is great to use, I just hardly ever do with my stuff because what I find is good enough...I have a lot of other things (many are toys) going on that consumes income so I sort through the average stuff to find something that works. Your midrange speaker is the 5.25 or 6.5....I would always go as big as will fit. Did not mean to be confusing on that. Note I have 4 12" IB in this car, a big reason why I am not getting enough mid bass.