Rudeboy

Appreciate it

Nice to see the materials in use. I love working on pickups - just a big box. Fiberglass is usually my first choice for sealing access holes, but yours look flat enough that you might be able to cut aluminum to fit. It'll take a lot less time. Very nice work.

Very nice job! The CLD Tiles will definitely cut you up. Using a roller solves that.

Hey dude! Got your e-mail. When i opened it i was like "holy shit" hahah a lot of info Let me know if anything didn't make sense.

Response sent at 4:00 AM Eastern time. I'll be pissed if I don't hear back in a few minutes I try to respond right away, but it isn't possible all the time. I get a lot of e-mail that I try to answer in order. Afternoons are for packing orders. Several pallets of CLD Tiles were delivered yesterday evening and I had to unload the truck. I do check e-mails on my phone, but I'm pretty sure I was asleep by 10:00 last night and I haven't found a way to read and write while dreaming I get e-mail from everywhere in the country, every English speaking country in the world and quite a few non-English speaking countries. It just isn't possible to respond to them all instantaneously. The thing you can be sure of is that when I do get back to you I will be giving you my full attention - whether you are ordering $10 worth of materials or enough to do 3 vehicles top to bottom. I'm not complaining - I love doing this.

Once again, I really appreciate the kind words. Treating the roof, especially a large roof, can make a big difference since it is such a large panel right above your head. As with any project like this, a shop manual can be a huge help - there's nothing like knowing exactly where the clips are and what they look like before you start pulling. You may be able find one for free online. I buy one whenever I buy a vehicle. You'll want two people if you are going to take the headliner out of the vehicle. You don't want to crease it. On some vehicles it is possible to lower one side, reach in to do what you need to do, reattach that side and move over to the other.

"rubberized adhesive" is what people selling asphalt call asphalt when they don't want to say "asphalt" Misleading as hell but it's asphalt. At least they stopped saying it was butyl.

After I wrote that it occurred to me that it might be more effort than most people will want to go through to waterproof MDF. Works really well though.

If you're just trying to waterproof MDF, you don't really need fiberglass at all. I take polyester resin and dilute 4 parts acetone or styrene to 1 part resin. Ten add as much catalyst as you would if the entire volume was resin. Slather on 3 or 4 coats waiting 1/2 hour or more between (you'll need a fresh batch for each coat). The mixture will soak the top 1/8" or more MDF. Let that cure for a day and then go over it with a coat of undiluted resin.

Damn. Do I have to sit here and take this?

I'm a little overwhelmed here - really appreciate the kind words.

Didn't even know there was such a thing

You really don't want any vibration damper for a pure SPL car. Vibration dampers eat energy. If you only care about numbers on a meter, find a better way to reinforce the panels to prevent energy loss to panel motion and deformation.

Fatmat is asphalt. According to their website, they released a product called Mega Mat in 2009 which they claim is their first butyl product. There is a lot of confusion because FatMat used to claim it was butyl when it wasn't. After a lengthy debate on one of the forums, the owner agreed to remove the word "butyl" from the site. Last time I checked, he was still using it on his eBay auctions. He also stated that asphalt was a superior vibration damper in many ways, but chose not to elaborate further. I've yet to see anyone selling a butyl product say it was asphalt

Indeed. Actually really nearly the only thing that CCF is good for. True that! I'd save an hour a day if people stopped promoting the idea that it is a barrier, an absorber or both.

Yes I have had dynamat fall off several times, I live in extreme heat, where vehicles temperature reach excess of 120* on a daily basis with ease for a large portion of the year. I don't know what to tell you, the dynamat fell off, and the raamat in same areas is still holding after about 1 1/2 years. I am also not the only person that has had this experience. The FACT IS that it did happen to me, and it did peel off. So telling me that's a false statement because of something I experienced? Where do YOU get off with a statement like that? There have only been two real issues that you and impious seem to disagree with me on. 1.) multiple layers- I already stated I understand and agree that a single layer of "better" mat is more efficient. I also stated how those mats are also thicker and harder to work with. multiple layers from real world experience does and has proved to be very effective. I would gladly lay down 2-3 layers of something that is easy to work worth through bends. 2.) you are telling me that ensolite is not a good sound absorber. THAT MY FRIEND is a completely false staement. I already explained how it works, which is the same as any insulator in the world. If this statement was false, and you somehow can prove how closed cell insulators do not work as good sound absorbers, then maybe you would share to enlighten the world on a better way? (you could make millions) and no one still addressed BigC how what happened to HAT? Repeating the same thing over and over is not an explanation. A few basic principles cover all of these issues but you choose to make up your own physics. Not sure what more there is to say about it.

If you've had Dynamat fall off countless times, it was either Dynamat Original (which nobody will defend as a product) or there is something so utterly wrong with your implementation of the simplest installation procedure I can imagine that your grasp of reality has to be questioned. If you threw Dynamat Original into this discussion as a straw man, more than your basic competence is suspect. None of your statements are false? That statement itself is false, but more importantly, some of your statements are partly true but you are assigning them too much significance. It's very easy to draw the wrong conclusions from casual observations. Research constrained layer dampers and viscoelasticity. Both topics have been studied extensively by people who understand these things better than you or I ever will. While you're at it, see if yo can find a copy of Vibration Damping By Ahid D. Nashif, David I. G. Jones, John Phillips Henderson at the library and then tell me your multi-layer approach makes any sense after you've read it. It looks like the sun is orbiting the earth when you are lying in your hammock, but that doesn't make it so.

That's pretty silly. How hard is Dynamat to work with? Is 4 mil foil that much of a challenge? I don't think I've ever encountered anyone who was beaten by aluminum foil. Where did you get the idea that RAAMmat has a higher heat tolerance than Dyanamt Xtreme? Who "certified" that? I've tested the two products side by side dozens of times and RAAMmat always fails first. That's not really the big deal you seem to think it is since any constrained layer damper that performs well in the temperature range that is important to us (normal temps in a vehicle) is going to be worthless at the temperatures at which either one fails. Flexibility isn't a virtue when it comes to constrained layer dampers. You want a stout constraining layer. The energy you saved by not having to wrestle with 4 mil foil will bite you in the ass for the life of your install. I used to be a fan of RAAMmat's value too. The unfortunate fact is that its very thin foil and too viscous adhesive leaves a lot to be desired when you take performance into consideration. Why do you think they've introduced BXT II, with a 4 mil foil BTW? BXT II is vastly superior to BXT. You've concluded that "the more you use the better" because you've been using ineffective products. You are correct that if the constrained layer damper isn't properly engineered, all you are doing is adding mass. How exactly does adding mass "absorb vibration"? Google constrained layer damper to learn what should be going on. Adding mass to a panel is an extremely inefficient way to damp vibrations - so inefficient in fact, that most people should consider it a compete waste of time. Adding multiple layers makes no sense either. With a constrained layer damper, each added layer is only damping the layer under it, which shouldn't be resonant so ...? If you want to just add mass, all you can hope to do is lower the panel's resonant frequency below the audible range. There are applications for this when the resonating part is excited by a narrow frequency range, but that isn't the case in a vehicle. If you want to add mass there are many cheaper alternatives. You are going to surprised by how much mass it's going to take. This one is almost impenetrable. Saying mass is the opposite of density is interesting. In a vehicle, where available space is limited, you need to use a dense material to achieve the mass you need to block sound. While we're jumping on distinctions without differences, it is possible to have such a thin layer of a very dense material that its mass is worthless as a barrier. Barrier effectiveness isn't governed by "mass law" because the people who called it that didn't know their mass from a hole in the ground. Ensolite is the name of a product family of closed cell foams. None of them are very good absorbers. Some of them are good isolators and cushions, but absorbers, no. You have accused others of not understanding how sound interacts when it encounters various boundaries and media, but you are ignoring the importance of the frequencies that comprise the sound we are concerned with. Is 1/8" closed cell foam going to absorb sound? Yes, at frequencies above the audible range.

This eBay seller sells "Dum Dum" for automotive leak repair. Many times when you pull a car apart you will find hole plugs covered with some butyl compound and a piece of plastic sheeting. What are you planning to use it for?

The percentage of people making acoustical mods to their vehicles who end up doing SPL competitions is minuscule. Among those who do, a good number use their vehicle as a daily driver and are willing to make some concessions so that the daily experience is not excruciating. In any case, the OP has decided he wants a barrier to use in his car so the recommendations I made in this thread are based on the assumption that a grown man can be counted on to know what he wants. Blanket statements about sound deadening materials resulting in a net gain or loss of SPL need to be looked at very skeptically. I've seen a roughly equal distribution between "I applied product X and gained a dB or 2" and "I applied product X and lost a dB or 2". That's because every panel and every vehicle is different. Two things happen to influence the outcome when you apply a vibration damper to a panel - some sound energy is going to be converted to heat and the panel is going to be made somewhat less susceptible to distortion. Whichever mechanism dominates is going to influence the end result and I think determining the outcome ahead of time is well beyond most of our capabilities. I'm inclined to agree that any vibration damper that claims to enhance SPL is iffy at best. Take a look at the graph Dynamat uses to support this claim sometime when you need a laugh. It's absolutely wrong to think you can get more energy out of a system than you put into it. If the panel resonates at a useful frequency you will be better of than if it didn't - all else being equal but you still have to put more energy in than you get out as resonance. As has been pointed out above, the only modification that makes sense for pure SPL goals is reinforcement without vibration damping. Damping "wastes" energy as does panel deformation.

how is MLV applied? does it have a sticky layer? should I use butyl rope? Do I just screw the top end to a panel and let it hang? should I put MLV on my roof or is that pretty pointless? MLV isn't self adhesive - and you wouldn't want it to be. You get the best result when it isn't tightly bonded to the vehicle. On floors, just lay it on top of a layer of closed cell foam (CCF) and let gravity and the carpet hold it in place. I use Velcro Patches to hold it to vertical surfaces. Barriers like MLV block directional sound. Since there aren't many noise sources directly overhead, there isn't much point in applying to the roof. Since MLV weighs 1 lb/ft² it's also a little tough to hang up there. I definitely like to put vibration damper on the roof and usually a layer of closed cell foam to help with the high frequency air turbulence noise that is often an issue.

Dynamat Xtreme isn't necessarily the best bang for the buck, but $93 is a good price.

your math is as bad as your reading. there are 48 1/4" pieces in 12", not 4. lol rofl... wow im goin to bed... ill just order from don... Now that I'm having my supplier drop ship roll quantities, MLV is actually pretty inexpensive. The problem with find an inexpensive alternative is that MLV is the inexpensive alternative to lead. There are only so many times you can make an inexpensive alternative to the inexpensive alternative before you are packing mud on your panels.

I'm not disputing this advice, I just think it is important to expand on it. I used to believe that choosing "butyl" when selecting a constrained layer damper (CLD) got you most of the way there. Butyl does eliminate most of the melting and adhesive failure problems that asphalt has, but there have been butyl products that delaminated or fell off. Basic stability issues have occupied a lot of our time over the last few years. That's a very low standard to set. An effective CLD needs to be a careful balance between the adhesive layer and the constraining layer. The constraining layer is pretty simple - it has to be rigid enough to resist deformations in the adhesive layer. That's why products with thin plastic or foil layers are no more effective than asphalt, even if they are more stable. The adhesive question is a lot more complicated. "Butyl" is just a synthetic rubber compound that is mixed with many other components for this use. It isn't vulcanized or cured, so it's not like the hard rubber most of us think of generically as rubber - tires for example. An effective CLD adhesive layer is viscoelastic over a wide temperature range. This means it is part way between liquid and "rubbery" or elastic. When cold, the material moves toward the elastic side of the scale and when warm, toward the liquid. Performance falls off dramatically if the adhesive is too liquid or too elastic. Everything depends on the adhesive staying in the viscoelastic range so that it can react to vibration and return to it's original position more slowly than it was deformed. In a liquid state the material just transmits vibration. In the elastic state it returns all of the energy it receives. This is why claims like: "highest rubber content" are either marketing claims that assume the customer is stupid, or worse, betray a complete misunderstanding of how these products work on the part of the seller. Other silly claims include those that tout softness and flexibility as virtues instead of cost saving measures that compromise the product's performance. The requirements for constraining layer and adhesive characteristics are why it is so difficult to find alternative materials that work well as vibration dampers. Products designed for roofing or corrosion protection have completely different uses and are designed to serve that very different use. The odds of them performing well for our uses are slim to none. None of this is to suggest that the products in the post that started this thread aren't very good - I have no idea. I'm really just reacting to a trend I've noticed in the past few weeks toward recommending products that I thought had been discredited long ago.

Shipping to Estonia might be a little rough though It's tough to figure out what those products are - they don't seem to correspond to the listings on the Standartplast Web site and the products they do list have pretty vague descriptions.