Rudeboy

Have you every compared the two, side by side? What differences do you see that would lead you to believe that one works and the other doesn't? I got into a debate with the new owner of Fatmat a few years ago. It was primarily about the composition of his product. He eventually agreed to remove the claim that Fatmat was butyl based from his Web site. I asked him to explain the difference between Fatmat and Peel & Seal. This should be easy for him to do since his primary business is roofing supplies - he's a dealer for Peel & Seal and other MFM products. He never answered the question. Before you ask, I have handled and tested both at the same time. I couldn't tell the difference. The owner of one brand and distributor of the other wouldn't say what the differences were. What do you know that neither of us could figure out?

Here's a little more. I'll leave it to others to debate whether or not MFM's Peel & Seal is the product being relabeled as "sound deadener" by some vendors, but since it is the topic of this thread, here's what MFM says: It's not too hard to see how you'd get from the legitimate product description to the brilliantly deceptive.

From Fatmat: An important consideration in the sound dampening of automobiles, boats, homes, computers and buildings is of course selecting the correct products that will be most effective in your application. Here you find the product that started it all for us, FatMat. Our 50 mil nominal rubberized compound is covered with a shiny protective aluminum top as well as a waxed paper release bottom it's exactly what your looking for in order to stop those nasty rattles, eliminate road and outside noise, insulate your vehicle and dramatically improve the sound of your car audio stereo system. So it's not asphalt, just saying. Rubberized compound compound is a euphemism used to mislead: Coated or treated with rubber Rubber compounds are added to all products like these to stabilize the asphalt. These compounds break down quite quickly which is one of the most common reasons for failure. If you don't have the balls to admit that you're selling asphalt, you misdirect. You can sprinkle sugar on feces and say it contains sugar - which they did, but you can't say it doesn't contain shit - which you did.

That depends what they are rattling against. If they are rattling against the inner skin, a layer of CCF will stop it - doesn't even need to be full layer, a piece here and there will probably take care of it. If it's one part of the trim panel rattling against another part of the trim panel, you've either got to stop the pieces from moving or stop them from making contact. A rattle is always two or more hard objects making intermittent contact because one or more of them is vibrating. The key to stopping any rattle is identifying those object(s). In most cases, once you've done that, the solution will be simple.

I added a thin layer of a rubber mat, I think it was pond liner.... Then I put some foam type padding to eliminate some of the whine coming from my case... Problem is I have sooo many vents that it didn't help a whole lot... But my PSU sounds less... That's the problem with computer cases - doesn't matter how much of a barrier you create inside, the noise is just going to come out with the air transfer. Fans are usually the biggest noise makers anyway. Putting vibration damper on the case can help. Decoupling the case from what it's sitting on can help. If you really want to build a barrier, you'd need to build an enclosure around the case and build some sort of baffled air transfer that can move a lot of air quietly.

Rattle Trap is asphalt, just a thicker layer of asphalt than P&S.

ASTM E756 is the standard. The problem is that it has been abused to hell in this market. One well known company is known to have fudged the test. Others have just fabricated results. Nobody wants to make their results public since legitimate test results would look terrible compared to what is floating around out there. The only way to get apples to apples would be to submit all of the samples for which you are interested in seeing results to a lab for testing. Problem is that the least expensive testing I've found is still $600 per sample. When I was testing and reviewing products I had the idea of organizing something like this. Each vendor would submit a sample, pay for the test and authorize the lab to send a copy of the results to me to publish. Nobody was interested. That's understandable since allowing the vendor to supply the sample leaves a lot of room for manipulation.

Great opportunity to discuss treating trunks. What problems are you trying to resolve? As far as I know, the only problem I have is my trunk lid resonating. I dont know if you are familiar with this particular type of trunk but I have two bars running from side to side which are involved in the lid opening so I cannot remove them. They are small metal bars (diameter 1/2" tops) which are creating most of the noise. In addition, the actually trunk lid is rattling quite a bit. I planned on lining 25% of the the trunk lid with Cld tiles like you recommend but I am not sure of the right solution to deaden the two bars. Any help is appreciated ! You can take the springs out and replace them with gas shocks. It's fun, but probably more than you want to do. There's a good chance that they are rattling against each other where they cross. If that's the case, wrapping one in a thin layer of foam should take care of it. What is the trunk lid rattling against? If it's the lower layer of sheet metal rattling against the outer skin, a few dabs of RTV silicone will keep them from making contact. Its definitely rattling, against what I do not know for sure. However, I do not think the bars are making contact because there is about an inch of separation between the two. I will have to try and figure out where exactly the rattling is coming from; its just a bit difficult because to know for sure because the rattling decreases significantly when the trunk is open. That is sort of tough since you almost need to be inside the trunk with the lid closed. Those springs should be under tension, opened or closed. I'll bet you can figure it out by wiggling them by hand. Depending on the actual problem, another possible solution might be to slide vinyl tubing over the rods. Home Depot sells a variety of diameters that you can buy by the foot in the plumbing department. Be very careful if you remove the springs to do this - they are under tension and can do weird things when you release them, like smack you in the face.

Great opportunity to discuss treating trunks. What problems are you trying to resolve? As far as I know, the only problem I have is my trunk lid resonating. I dont know if you are familiar with this particular type of trunk but I have two bars running from side to side which are involved in the lid opening so I cannot remove them. They are small metal bars (diameter 1/2" tops) which are creating most of the noise. In addition, the actually trunk lid is rattling quite a bit. I planned on lining 25% of the the trunk lid with Cld tiles like you recommend but I am not sure of the right solution to deaden the two bars. Any help is appreciated ! You can take the springs out and replace them with gas shocks. It's fun, but probably more than you want to do. There's a good chance that they are rattling against each other where they cross. If that's the case, wrapping one in a thin layer of foam should take care of it. What is the trunk lid rattling against? If it's the lower layer of sheet metal rattling against the outer skin, a few dabs of RTV silicone will keep them from making contact.

Might be the same reason they wank - the thing's already in their hand, might as well do something with it. I don't think this is deliberate, but I think we've all come to understand that adding mass to an automotive panel in an effort to move its resonant frequency out of the range of stimulation - effectively the full audible range in this application, is pretty much pointless because of the mass that would be required. The same isn't true of an aluminum soda can that weighs 1/2 oz. Pretty easy to make an ineffective vibration damper perform as well as any other. The upside for me is that I've completely gotten over being embarrassed by the tests I did for the original SDS.

It's weird how often threads on this topic end up like this. I guess this was directed at me but I'm glad everybody got a chance to share in the hilarity. I keep thinking I'll respond to one or another of your rambling points but without knowing if you are being deliberately dishonest or are just an incoherent imbecile, it's kind of hard to zero in. Just for the fun of it: Does your claim about bicep size relative to waist size apply to fat people? How critical is this concept to your self image. It really doesn't have to get into fat people territory - anything but the waist of a skinny child is freak show territory. Why should we argue with you instead of cthedinger? He's already stated that you don't know what you're talking about. You said you were partners. Three possibilities: 1) Business partners (would make sense since he's promoting a business). 2) Domestic partners. 3) Old timey western pals. Are you two cowboys?

Great opportunity to discuss treating trunks. What problems are you trying to resolve?

The root of all of this is the thread on another forum that I mentioned earlier. I would post a link to it, but cthedinger deleted all of his posts from it. It's fine for him to act like he has been victimized by me here, but I only became aware of the other thread because members there were outraged by the false allegation cthedinger made against me and my products and asked me to join and respond. It doesn't seem reasonable to attack and expect there to be no consequences. Unfortunately, since cthedinger chose to obliterate his contribution to that thread, the evidence is gone. It's also disingenuous to cry foul after stating that he wouldn't trust RAAMmat BXT II in his car when what he showed as his reason is pretty obviously a physically damaged sample. He never mentioned this damage in his review video leaving us to imagine where and how the damage occurred. At the same time, we're being asked to trust the superior quality of a product that's different than the prototype, doesn't seem to exist and apparently hasn't been seen by anybody, including cthedinger. Very strange development cycle, IMO. I'd suggest sending out samples of a shipping product. I know I'd be interested in seeing it. Oddly enough, I'd give an honest opinion. There are posts all over the place where I've commented favorably on competing products. Dynamat, Cascade and Second Skin all sell very good products. Cthedinger may too, but it's obviously premature for anybody to be claiming anything, one way or the other about his products. At this point all we have to evaluate are his antics

cthedinger: That's an impenetrable block of unpunctuated borderline spam that I can't penetrate. I wouldn't take a mention as an invitation for self promotion, but that's just me. Your self-proclaimed "partner" made the Protecto Wrap claim, not me. One of you has it wrong. If he doesn't speak for you, you should take it up with him. I very much resent the childish insinuation that my product isn't made in the US - it absolutely is. Your sheet/roll comments don't make any sense. I'm not sure what you are showing with that photo of RAAMmat It's clearly damaged. It's also not the same product I reviewed "back in the day". I've apologized here and elsewhere for not having the capability of testing damping performance when I did that review. Prototype? All of this is about a product that doesn't exist?

Audiowrap makes his deadner? Same build house. I know you know that. Not sure why you'd want to reveal that. "Build house" is an interesting choice of terms. Audiowrap is a side project for Protectowrap. Protectowrap is a roofing materials manufacturer. Audiowrap may be a good product - don't know, haven't seen it, but I have seen several other of their roofing products that other people have cynically sold as vibration dampers when they were noting of the sort. I also know that it was only a few months ago that your partner announced his product, was asked on another forum to explain how vibration dampers work and e-mailed me (under false pretenses) to ask how they work, unaware that I was watching that thread. I explained to him why his announced configuration would perform poorly. Since he re-announced the new configuration within days, I have to assume this was the extent of his testing. All of this and some of his past appearances have led me to certain conclusions, most of which I'll keep to myself, but cover everything with vibration damper as a solution for every application is a ship that sailed several years ago. "works extremely hard to portray a professional and honest image" is putting the cart before the horse. In any case, my post stands and you confirmed my assertion. I was a little bitchier than I like to be but your partner's previous behaviors have rubbed me the wrong way. Good luck with the endeavor. Dynamat is manufactured in sheets, as is Cascade VMax, Second Skin's products and several others.

Doesn't mean it's asphalt, just means it was manufactured on equipment that is used to make roofing products. Getting 4 mil foil to roll up would be a trick, so I'm curious to know if it actually is foil or the more likely plastic sheeting laminating a very thin layer of foil. Not saying it is that since I don't know. It's also important to know if the adhesive is formulated for vibration damping instead of waterproofing. What I do know is that this product is being sold by cthedinger. I think he is a member here. He announced this product a few months ago on another forum. A member there asked me to reply because he was making some pretty outrageous claims. By the time I saw it, things had become very heated and he was accused of having no idea how vibration dampers work. He posted that he did. Within minutes I received an e-mail from him asking for an explanation of how vibration dampers work. Ask for a sample. That's what he did. He contacted a few vendors, including me asking for samples to "help him make up his mind". He stuck some to the side of a soda can, dropped it on his parent's driveway and made a video. CLD Tiles won

I haven't. I've been using notebooks exclusively for a few years now. I still have a shelf full of Linux servers with steel cases I used to use for development, but they haven't seen power in years. I did use vibration damper on them and it helped quite a bit. A lot of the noise you hear is transmitted through the structure of the case. The problem here is that most of what you hear are the fans and hard drives, t a lesser extent. Lining the cases with a barrier wouldn't help with the fans that exchange air outside the case. You'd get the best result by building a larger enclosure for the computer, either out of a dense material or something lined with a barrier, then build a large baffled air exchange with maybe a large slow fan. It'd be a lot of work, but I'd expect you to be able to get very close to silence. Something much easier that can sometimes make a very big difference is isolating the case from whatever it is sitting on.

I know it's not much of an answer, but this really depends on what you are trying to achieve. Need more about your goals.

Pics are always good. Expanding foam has its uses, but I try to stay away from it because it is pretty much irreversible. If I've learned one thing in my years of doing this it's that no matter how much you think you'll never have to go back into an area after treatment, you will. It's probably not your bumper itself that's rattling, it's probably the bumper cover rattling against the functional bumper or another trim panel. Bumper covers are pretty easy to remove. Taking it off and adding some CCF where it's making contact should solve the problem. This is also a perfect example of where I wouldn't shoot expanding foam. Suppose somebody rear ends you and just damages the cover. Insurance will pay for the repair until you take it to the body shop and they realize the cover is permanently glued to car. If the trunk lid is flapping, you may be able to tighten the latch. If it's doing this as a way of venting excessive pressure, you'll have a hard time finding a solution. For the rest, you're back to hunting them down, one by one.

The HH-66 has to dry for 3 minutes or so before you can bond the pieces. I run the stopwatch next to the piece so I an do other things but still keep track of its progress. You can tell by looking if when it's ready to go, but this is easier for me. I've found I can't track time intervals in my head - what I think is 3 minutes can be anything from 30 seconds to 10 minutes

First, you just have to accept that doors can not be perfectly sealed. Even if the inner skin is perfect, you'll still get leaks around the glass and through the drains in the bottom. Also, MLV on the inner skin does most of this work for you. I still build access hole covers, but I'm not sure it isn't a belt and suspenders operation that I just do out of habit. I'm certain it won't hurt but I can't swear it is more effective than MLV alone. I'd use duct seal instead of modeling clay. It's much less likely to melt in the heat.

This depends on the vehicle. In most cars and trucks, the only decent noise treatments are behind the dash and on the center tunnel. Very often engine noise comes through the lower firewall and front floor. Remember, it doesn't just travel in a straight line from the engine into the passenger compartment, it reflects off the pavement and comes in through the floor too. It can also reflect off adjacent vehicles and obstacles along the road and come in through the sides of the vehicle. In any case, treating the floor, from as far up the firewall as you can reach to the front edge of the front seats usually results in a significant reduction. If this isn't enough, it may be worth considering treating the hood. I always encourage people to do the interior treatment first since that will make it easier to localize and identify the remaining problem.

Bring 'em on

The question hasn't been avoided - I just don't know. We did it over several days and I didn't keep exact track of the materials. We also left the stock asphalt on the floor and under the back seat for now and haven't gotten to the roof yet. I'd guess $500 before shipping. Probably $600-$650 if/when we go all out, all stock materials removed, etc. That's all before shipping. The next time were working on the car I'll take measurements and calculate the exact cost. Trunks often represent more than a third of a vehicle's total area. There are also some economies of scale that come into play when you treat an entire vehicle.

Aaron's Mazda.