Rudeboy

I'm really not trying to be smart ass here, but doesn't really get to the issue. These products are rebadged roofing membranes or repair products. By definition they are not being used as intended. There is considerable controversy over the toxicity of asphalt exposure in open spaces, with the asphalt industry seeming to be the only ones insisting that it is safe under those conditions. Think we can assume that the MSDS for FatMat is the MSDS for Peel & Seal? - I guess that is what you are looking for.

... and, why would you want the thickest? Thickness is the least relevant metric I can think of. To the extent that a sound deadener's effectiveness comes from adding mass to a panel, you want density instead of thickness - add the most mass possible in the least amount of space. To the extent that CLVED is the functional mechanism you actually want a thinner adhesive and thicker foil - the ideal being something like a 2:1 foil:adhesive ratio. This becomes impractical very quickly since you need to be able to cut and bend the stuff. The only way I can imagine thickness being a virtue is if you start talking about thickness that matches up to wavelengths, so the difference here between 60 and 120 mils is only going to apply to a small slice of the spectrum. I've never seen any benefits described for a relationship like this even if that were the thinking behind claiming thickness as a selling point. Ironically, it is FatMat that pushed the idea of thicker automatically being better when talking about their Rattlepad. He may be designing products based on incompletely vetted marketing hype from the previous owners.

Credit where credit is due. FatMat issued a refund today for the product I ordered last week. -added 2008-01-07 - I was so tired when I posted this yesterdaythat I didn't notice the pun/irony

Thanks for that. I think you are overstating my capabilities, but I appreciate it. I've all but given up on keeping this on topic, but I'm going to give this one more try. I will endeavor to stay out of the pissing contests. I'm going to assume that most people aren't familiar with the history of FatMat and so may be more willing to think they deserve the benefit of the doubt more than my statements indicate that I do. There is a long history here and none of it is my doing. All I did was determine that FatMat was asphalt, more than 2 years ago. FatMat's reaction was to add the word butyl to their Web site and start telling people who called that it was butyl. FatMat was not the only seller of asphalt products to take this approach. SteveFatMat has acknowledged this part of it. Since some feel that I was wrong to answer each of SteveFatMat's points with an equal amount of detail, I'll simplify.and create a concise version of what I consider to be the outstanding issues. I am concerned that SteveFatMat dates the start of his connection to FatMat at September 2007. This conflicts with this: This is the whois data for sounddeadener.com. It shows very clearly that the same Galeazzo, Steve who has registered noisekillers.com and fatmat.com has been the registered owner of sounddeadener.com since at least October 24, 2005. Sounddeadener.com has always existed as a sales portal for FatMat. This is at odds with his direct statements. Describing FatMat as a rubberized mastic is still very imprecise. Even without the word butyl, that description combined with the heat resistance stated on the Web sites of 300

I have moron. All of this chit out of your mouth and you haven't even looked at the site? Geez. Get some FatMat, install it into Mommy's car. She'll give you extra dinner.

Spelling????? That's what this comes down to for you? This used to be a friendly forum where I thought people were looking for knowledge. Do you really think that selling Chinese made geegaws from a prefab store front makes you all that? Good bye and good luck to all but this mouth breathing troll.

Some of you need to get out more. I'd suggest that all of you that are more concerned with my character than the truth of this matter install FaMat in your cars and then reconvene here in three years to discuss exactly how full of it I am and how well SteveFatMat served the community. Better yet, just ask your member sundownz about it. You've been fed a line and it wasn't by me. I'm pretty comfortable with the effort I've made. I choose not to take advice on professionalism from a stealth vendor pretending to be a manufacturer. Thanks just the same.

The quoted material below looks different than the original because I added paragraphs. Call me arrogant if you like, but I find them useful How about sounddeadener.com? The last update to that domain name registration was October 2005 so you have owned that site at least since then. Fair enough and the reference IS gone. That will also need to be carried through to the people who answer the phone since less than a month ago a caller was told that FatMat was butyl. Can you not say more because you don't know or because to do so would confirm something many of us already believe? Another point, "rubberized mastic" has a long history of misuse in a sound deadening context. The distinction is made between asphalt and butyl. People mistake rubber for butyl. Even if it is unintentional, "rubberized mastic" is misleading. Rubberized asphalt is the only accurate description in this context. I'd prefer SBS or SBR asphalt, whichever is true, since that is more accurate still, but sound deadener sellers very seldom do what I suggest. Good luck with that. This speaks to good customer service and I commend you for that. I'm sure you will agree that relative quality comparisons are impossible for most consumers and must be ignored. Any concerns about durability can't be addressed in the short time frame of eBay feedback. All that can be deduced from the feedback is that you ship quickly. That is an improvement, certainly. Personalize it if you want, but it is you, not I who is at odds with all of the relevant science. Present a single fact that supports your position and some of us will give it credit. Otherwise just the word, of somebody selling a product, that goes against every other reputable source isn't going to carry much weight. Asphalt is not viscoelastic, so an important aspect of sound deadening is denied to the users of your product right there. Asphalt's limited effectiveness occurs across a much narrower temperature range than applies for butyl. Basically the only thing asphalt does is add mass to a panel. People may notice that none of your Web sites makes the case that if FatMat sticks and remains stable, it will do nothing more than anything else that adds weight. Your claims are quite a bit more fanciful and extravagant than that. Beyond effectiveness, toxicity and stability are concerns. You are selling a product designed for exterior application for use in enclosed spaces. Asphalt outgases toxic VOCs. You can claim it has no odor all you want, but that just isn't true. I certainly didn't start that and would have to be a very effective communicator to make people believe that your product smells bad when warm. That tar smell is an indicator of the outgasing I described. Stability is the more important factor for most users. Here you are going against Grace Construction, a competitor to MFM, the makers of Peel & Seal. These people have done considerable testing and I am much more inclined to give them credence than I am a reseller. Rubber stabilized asphalt has an initial melting temperature that is higher than what will be encountered in a car under almost all conditions. It would be great if that was the end of the story - Peel & Seal would be a cheap way to add mass to automotive panels and there is some benefit in that. Unfortunately, it does not end there. The rubber used to stabilize the asphalt deteriorates when exposed to temperatures significantly lower than out of the package ratings for the product. This means that in normal use, products like Peel & Seal and FatMat lose their heat tolerance over time. This is exactly why it is very common for an asphalt installation to make it through the first or even second summer, only to fail during the next. I don't blame you for not wanting to send me products. Ironically, a great many companies do. I have NEVER asked before this little nightmare, but I am contacted quite frequently by people who want to get the word out about products they believe in. This single source is never enough to form a conclusion, unless a company has a long history of being completely straight with me. My testing IS very rudimentary, but has some relative merit. Companies that are proud of their products know they will be fine under those conditions. I'm not trying to make precise rankings, just telling people that if a product has the same specs as Peel & Seal, I see no reason to pay a middle man to stamp cute logos on it when you can just drive to Home Depot and save yourself the markup and shipping? I'd love to know where you see value added in that equation. It is definitely true that sellers whose products can't beat Peel & Seal are reluctant to send samples. I would love to publish fair tests done to ASTM standards. A few manufacturers have offered to pay for the testing of their products with me acting as the impartial clearinghouse. The problem is, some of your sites have test results that purport to be ASTM E756 compliant, but with no details or attribution. Falsified or at least out of context numbers like these make it impossible for legitimate tests results to be compared fairly. Maybe you should spend a little less time being part of the problem. Four months should have been more than enough time to eliminate the dishonest statements. Since you say you are familiar with ASTM standards, shouldn't we hold you accountable for being behind Web sites that misuse them? Suggesting that I am a front for the competition has definitely been the last resort of some disreputable sellers. For a while, people who called FatMat were alternately told that I worked for RAAMmat or that I worked for Second Skin. If you look into the posts I've made around the Web, you would also have to assume that I work for Dynamic Control and Cascade too. This would be a miraculous situation where competitors all got together to harm others in the same industry. Might be nice for me if it were true, but it isn't. NOBODY pays for the content in SDS. I've been offered substantial sums of money to sell SDS, but stupidly, I've turned them down. Much better to take abuse than to retire early I guess. Cascade makes some great products and the upcoming version of SDS will reflect that. Dynamat Xtreme is a very good product, but the company loses big points for continuing to sell Dynamat Original. I can only assume they have a warehouse full of it to get rid of since it is so far inferior to Xtreme. If you have been studying the competition, you would know they have been moving it out of the combination packs and generally downplaying its existence. Your justification for your behavior is going to come apart when they drop it altogether in the near future.

It is not my intention to step on people's toes, nor is it my intention or practice to kiss the asses of anybody. I was bumping this thread to draw SteveFatMat out - encouraging him to go on record instead of just using this forum as a vehicle for posting a press release. Perhaps I should have been more clear about that, but I really didn't want to directly call the guy out. Any fair reading of the posts that led to the blow up make it pretty clear that these two "respected" members questioned my ethics and were very condescending and childish about a few bucks. After something like 30,000 readers, nobody else has been that petty. It pissed me off and I have no tolerance for those who can't take what they dish out. It is fine that most of the people here are intimately familiar with the histories and credentials of every other poster. I am not and no casual user will be. One of these members sells product in this market without identifying himself as such in signature or on his member side bar. This is a huge problem on any public use board, so I would suggest people be a little less quick to throw stones. It's completely obvious where I'm coming from to anyone that is willing to take the time to look into it. I believe I am owed an apology (but don't expect to receive it) from the member who suggested I am trying to scam product. People trying to promote what he sells out of his little storefront would obviously make a significant dent in his bottom line if he sent it to them. What I am talking about has a cost of no more than a buck or two. No equivalence at all. Doesn't matter, I only came here because I use ZED amps and noticed there were sound deadener related questions. Whether certain members like it or not - hell, whether I like it or not, I am an expert on aftermarket automotive sound deadeners. That isn't bragging and I'm not suggesting I have done anything that anybody else couldn't do. The fact is, I did do it, so it is what it is. Big deal. Not worth bragging about and not worth anybody else nipping at my heels because they need to protect their big fish in a small pond status. Back to the task at hand.

As am I. Nobody is more interested in having another good sound deadener company around. Those that think I have been too harsh may not realize how badly FatMat has behaved in the past.

to further marks's sentiments rudy, if you purchase it, there can be no bias. if steve gave it to you, and it turned out to be what he claims it is (which from reading your previous posts, i doubt), one could argue you gave it a good review because it was free. this happens alot, especially online. however, that being said, with steve lurking so much, i would think it's almost obligatory for him to send you at least two samples just to make up for what has gone on here. you buy two, he sends you two. compromise. otherwise, i think steve needs to stay gone. if he can't back up claims, he doesn't need to be here. wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee Love how you two want to spend my money. I've spend hundreds buying sound deadener just for testing, including FatMat. Problem is, my name is known in the industry so unless I create an alias for ordering, the manufacturers are going to know anyway. How about one of you order some and send it to me? This is a hobby and something I do as a public service. As far as me trying to scam sound deadener, 1.78 square feet at a time and being influenced by such a "gift" says a lot more about the fragility of both of your ethics than it does about mine. You guys are unbelievable. excuse me? you've spent hundreds on deadener just to test, but $20 more is just too much? your name is sooooo well known, you can't just ask for samples? and you're so fair and unbiased, evidently people jump at the opportunity to send it to ya. i see that now. please forgive my ignorance. do me a favor, i was in your corner, but get off your highhorse. you're unbelievable. we just made a simple suggestion, nothing more, nothing less. nevermind..... nothing i could type would touch your aloofness. you're far better then i....what was i thinking? wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee Gee, must have forgotten my place. Later.

to further marks's sentiments rudy, if you purchase it, there can be no bias. if steve gave it to you, and it turned out to be what he claims it is (which from reading your previous posts, i doubt), one could argue you gave it a good review because it was free. this happens alot, especially online. however, that being said, with steve lurking so much, i would think it's almost obligatory for him to send you at least two samples just to make up for what has gone on here. you buy two, he sends you two. compromise. otherwise, i think steve needs to stay gone. if he can't back up claims, he doesn't need to be here. wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee Love how you two want to spend my money. I've spend hundreds buying sound deadener just for testing, including FatMat. Problem is, my name is known in the industry so unless I create an alias for ordering, the manufacturers are going to know anyway. How about one of you order some and send it to me? This is a hobby and something I do as a public service. As far as me trying to scam sound deadener, 1.78 square feet at a time and being influenced by such a "gift" says a lot more about the fragility of both of your ethics than it does about mine. You guys are unbelievable.

For applying asphalt to a foil/poly laminate I've never said P&S wasn't suitable for its intended application - may even be ideal. It just isn't very good for use in a motor vehicle for sound deadening. While SteveFatMat's lurking and failure to comment on all of the information that has been forthcoming since his press release isn't making me any more optimistic, I wan to repeat my invitation to have him send me 4 8" squares to test. If what his sites say is true, people should know that FatMat has changed and SDS can be very helpful in that regard - I just don't think I should have to buy samples to test. I bought enough to test several years ago and have had FatMat customers send me other pieces to look at in the interim. SteveFatMat, I will give you a fair shake. Just get me some product. Several hundred people read SDS each and every day. That should certainly help you get the word out. New version coming soon!

Still no response and still no offer of a sample to test. I'm losing faith

Here it is on the FatMat site. Here are some extreme claims on the noisekillers.com site.

Previously tested samples of FatMat have been completely indistinguishable from MFM Peel & Seal. Obviously by claiming that the product is now butyl, they are saying it is no longer the same thing. I guess we'll see if SteveFatMat replies. It is becoming increasingly difficult to figure out how NASA could be using FatMat. If this is just more BS in the name of FatMat, I got to say I wish terrible things for the new owners. Here's the whois for galcosales.com: Administrative Contact: Galeazzo, Steve [email protected] galcosales 20 park rd Painesville, Ohio 44077 United States 14406391945 Fax -- No mistake there, just misspelled the name of the town he's in on the FatMat registration. Do you think we should be questioning the statement on the FatMat site that claims they manufacture the stuff themselves? That would make them completely unique in the sound deadening business.

I've noticed that myself. A few hours last night too, then off, so it isn't just leaving the browser open after his post.

Let's hope. Reading this isn't filling me with confidence - particularly the claim that the adhesive is patented without citation and the claim that NASA uses FatMat.

No word yet, but ownership of the domain name fatmat.com apparently changed in June. I say apparently because the previous owners hid their names after I started posting the fact that they were selling the same product under several different names. I believe the previous owners of the domain and FatMat itself were Chris and Tammy McDaniel in Corry, PA. The same town that is home to R-Blox and Sound Destroyer. Now fatmat.com, sounddeadener.com and noisekillers.com are registered to: Galeazzo, Steve [email protected] Noise Killers PO box 703 Painesville, Ohio 44077 United States 8773285060 Fax - This I would assume is SteveFatMat who posted here. Now for some intrigue. A few years ago I got an e-mail from a guy pretending to be an innocent neighbor of the FatMat people. He passed along some tidbits that I knew to be true and also said that the guy selling FatMat through the sounddeadener.com domain name was a friend of the McDaniels. Based on the dates for the domain name registrations, that friend would be Steve Galeazzo AKA SteveFatMat. After I did some digging, I determined that my informant was one of the clowns behind R-Blox, so take his word with a grain of salt. All I know is that the previous owners of FatMat claimed it was a butyl product for several years even though several tests showed it to be asphalt. The current Web site has statements that can not be true and which came word for word from the old site. If SteveFatMat is a longtime seller of FatMat he has to know that customer service was just one part of the problem with FatMat. I'll keep a slightly open mind, but this brand has a long history of bad service and bad products. I'm not encouraged by the pricing for the Speaker Kit - at $21.99, it is more expensive than a Dynamat Xtreme speaker kit. We'll see what our new friend comes up with, but it doesn't look like he is new to the FatMat game.

I guess I don't get an answer. Maybe more of a press release than a Q&A, dunno. I've looked into this a little further. The new FatMat Web site clearly states that it uses a butyl adhesive but the illustration still shows the old P&S asphalt graphic. I figured I'd order a 2 ft

Just to be clear, you are running fatmat.com, sounddeadener.com and noisekillers.com with the last two representing themselves as authorized resellers of FatMat. Looks like you have been the sounddeadener.com guy for quite a while. I was told you were friends with the people in Corry, PA who ran FatMat into the ground. Not true?

I'm sorry if you thought you were buying the rights to "Great Proven Products", but that is far from the case. FatMat is a product that is indistinguishable for MFM Peel & Seal sold using deceptive claims by people who didn't know the first thing about automotive sound deadening. The new FatMat Web site indicates no real change in that. Better customer service for a poor quality product isn't going to make much difference.

This is a registrar screw up, not Stephen's fault at all. It should be sorted out in a few days, but it's generally easier and quicker to resolve things that are customer error than those where the registrar drops the ball. If anybody is desperate for some ZED Web site content, I put a copy of the old site's files here.

Loose something somewhere - could be that quarter that fell out of your pocket 3 years ago Sorry, couldn't help it. It really could be any one f a thousand different things. Question is, can you live with it or are you p for some major excavating?

Maybe, but not likely. More vibration damper might reduce the energy exciting the rattle, but if you can't stop it by putting your hand on it, sound deadener probably won't stop it either since it amounts to the same thing. Gotta keep hunting.