audio-neon

As an owner of both Sundown and RF products, there is no clear winner, but Sundown is a better built amp IMO. Customer service and warranty also go to Sundown.

Welcome back tom. I was just thinking that my favorite form of cooking is Dutch oven, it's another form of slow cooking. I have made a turkey in a trashcan before. Nothing like the juiciest turkey in the world after being up cooking it for 24 hours+

That was generous, it is known to be at least 3dB regularly much more. I know Sean, I'm a generous person. I just don't know how the topic got from how does a sub play 10hz tones when tuned to 30+hz to "can you tell the difference between x amount of amplifier power and y amount".

true. but he keeps going all over the place. what's with the 70 vs 75 somehow going to 30 vs 50? did i miss something? wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee Nope, he just pulled it out of his ass, completely proving his own ignorance and unwillingness to learn. I provided a very solid argument in either case, proving that the difference still wouldn't be very audible even with a 166% increase of power. (which isn't even completely true due to impedance rise and higher thermal waste.)

I said 2dB for the benefit of the doubt factor.

Fi BTL's x2

I haven't heard them yet but are the Focal tweets ear screeching like infinity speakers or something? Not ear screeching, definitely fatiguing after a lot of listening. They don't blend too well either without a really steep x-over slope.

I think sqguyib can't understand the math and science I have bent over backwards to double check to just try to get him to see the light.

That is not what I said that wattage is backwards, the new Kicker is 4x70 CEA. Look at some of the V12 MRV Alpine amps they show both ratings, here is a section out of a manual: SPECIFICATIONS Power Output: RMS Continuous Power (at 12.0V, 20 Hz to 20 kHz) Per channel into 4 ohms MRV-F353 (CH-1

I was just thinking about it. For your 500$ price point, you could also get Hybrid Audio Clarus components and get in on the group sale deal.

If you ever want to share any sq secrets, I'm all ears. Hell i'll even take a vacation and come down and provide beer. lol

Welcome Paul, if you have ever seen Adrian-D's eclipse ea4000, make sure he takes good care of one of my sq baby amps.

I would pick up hertz space k6l components before either of those choices. It's just a better sounding set of speakers. I have never been a fan of Focal's tweets. Boston Acoustics have never really impressed me either, they have better tweets from experience, but the soundstage always sounds too close for my personal taste. That and solid female vocals tend to sound airy. I'm probably considered a hertz fanboy, but for the sub $600 price range and with passives, I can't think of a better sounding set of components.

I thought it was, I just couldn't remember, I was debating between Ryan and Kent in my head, lol. Mine's MJ

What do you guys think of http://www.partsexpress.com/projectshowcas...project=Tritrix The zdt3.5's would require a larger room than I'm willing to build.

If it wasn't for the single 6 ohm coil. lol.

I'd also like to add that my experience with IB in car audio are with set-ups that are capable of reproducing frequencies in the teens.

I said this and I don't know how you get IB and ported at the same time from the bold part, that is just retarded if this is an "enthusiast site." So a sealed sub is "sealed AND box?" Ported is "Ported AND box?" I never said "IB ported" or "at the same time." If I saw 'at same time' I would ask how that was done and how it worked. I would imagine not much would come out of the port, but in fact people have run IB and ported the whole trunk into the car and I have no idea how well it works as I never have. Because few people actually vent the subs to the outside for true IB due to obvious reasons. You are just looking to attack something out of context. Context of the post is subs can play low, even $15 dollar ones in more than one configuration, but many people don't run them that way. I'm sorry if that was not obvious, it sure looks plain as day to me. With the huge goofy posts you guys made over the weekend I just figured you had a few beers or something. In the English language the word AND means: Together with or along with; in addition to; as well as. Used to connect words, phrases, or clauses that have the same grammatical function in a construction. Your phrase that he quoted was I used to run pyramid 10's at 30hz IB and ported. I don't know about you. But when running an IB set-up. When have you ever seen anyone say I run a 30hz IB set up? That 30hz was most likely related to the word ported. Therefore because of the conjunction, you made the mistake of poor grammar. Therefore Mrray and ///M5 etc. Were completely right in assuming that you were saying IB and ported together. Because I said "at" 30hz not "a" 30hz as you put it . The IB and ported refer to running each at 30hz, in this case a setup capable of producing 30Hz music. I'm not a grammar teacher by far, but it is still stupid to assume in this context even if it is incorrect. You are just trying in any way to call me an idiot and in this case it really is not there. I have no problem saying I am wrong when I am, I'm far from perfect but not an idiot either. Are you going to slap M5 also? Look what he posted: "Perhaps you should tell us how you would be happy with 100w on your fronts but 70w isn't enough....oh, excuse me you said you'd be fine off 75w. So you are implying you can hear the difference between a 70w amp and a 75w?? ROFL." Again, did not read my post about how the amps are rated. Its just nitpicky crap like I see on some other sites I stay away from, but not had that issue here until now. Maybe I was unclear in some statements, that still does not warrant the treatment a few of you have given me instead of simply asking for clarification. I'm not trying to call you an idiot. I was just trying to show you where Sean, Mrray etc. got the ported/IB thing. I promise you that I did read about how the amps were rated. If you go back to where I broke down your post politely, I clearly went above and beyond the call of duty. Investing the time to recheck my math and even take into account floor noise in a car audio environment. Where I clearly stated how the difference between 75 watts CEA and 70 watts @ 12v was inaudible.

Here is the link for the woofer tester: http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.c...FTOKEN=58009509

I think I might be building a table and much larger fence for my table saw later this summer. Just have to get all of my sprocket math right so that I can get as much accuracy as possible.

Most of the stuff was from people not reading my posts and replying. I don't recall the last time I got hunted down like that. To assume someone does not know what running ported or IB subs is? And then quote the post and cut out the part that explains the use? To say there is no audible difference between an old school amp at 75wrms@12v rated and another new amp at 70wrms CEA rated? To say people who run HU power all get high efficiency speakers to make it work? I don't really care, it just reflects the nature of users on this site to everyone that reads it. People can make up their own mind. Most people come on here for help not ridicule, but the place is what you make it. My posts are worth just what you paid for them, if they don't make sense then ask. Anyway, check this out where Pioneer actually shows you how you will be -5dB at 30Hz with their max size box for sealed or ported with a 12". http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pio/pe/i...8TSW3001D24.pdf You can't even quote yourself right when comparing the two amps you listed. AND WHAT YOU ACTUALLY POSTED So what is your point? Are you saying CEA does not rate at 14.4V? http://www.crutchfield.com/S-m32Z01XeE2w/popups/cacomp.html My kicker is 70x4 at 4 ohms CEA. Is that the same power as two of these: http://www.linearpower.com/detail/1501.html If you think so, you have never used a good old amp and should try it. There is a significant difference between 12.5 and 14.4 volt ratings or nobody would put a larger alternator in their car for a big amp. (not counting any under-ratings many old amps had) If you had any idea what kind of ratings Sundown Audio's SAZ and SAX series are rated at, you wouldn't ask me a stupid question like that. I had a problem with you all of a sudden tossing the words "old school" into a more recent post. We as enthusiasts all know that the way amps are rated now isn't the best way. We do however agree that CEA rating was a good step at making companies like sony, audiobahn etc... at least attempt to rate their amps to a standard. But since we are going to ask the young kid if I ever used what you would consider "old school amps" in one of my installs, no. I would have to rebuttal by asking the old man if you have ever used tube amps in a car? Because I have. And I have used amps that are rated at 12v as well. I have an old school earthquake 2ch amp sitting in my room that is rated at 12v, but I have never used it in a car.

I honestly think there are too many variables for a firm answer on this... There are so(!) many factors that can determain impedance (saying "rise" really isn't accurate, because it dips alot also) it would be tough to coorelate box size with impedance curves in some kind of repeatable manner. Impedance usually varies alot depending on how much an alignment can readily (or easily) achieve resonance, or how under-damped it is.... And this can be real serious with big boxes also.... Also, when we talk about impedance, DCR (what you read with a DMM) doesn't mean a whole lot... When a sub reads .7 on a DMM, there isn't an amplifier in the world that will ever, and I mean ever, see a .7 ohm load. This is impossible. As long as the coil has any sort of inductance at all (they all do, if they at least have over 1 turn of wire, so that's every single one) The impedance will ALWAYS be more than the DCR, I cannot stress this enough, and the higher the frequency, the higher the impedance will be (not factoring in system resonance wich makes it even higher) due to inductance. I think it is funny when I see people talkling about what a coil "really measures", because if you don't have an impedance bridge (or something similar), you are not really measuring anything that has to do with audio... I guess what I'm trying to say is don't get hung up with what your DMM says, it is good for checking shorts or consistency. But, for impedance, trust what the manufacturer specs out, they give you a much more accurate "average" of what the driver impedance will be. Thermal compression a big deal with 3 second burps? Maybe, maybe not.... But when you get into 1/10th of a db FTW, it's the small things that can make a difference... I guess where I'm going with this is: Smaller boxes are "peakier" and there is a volume that will in itself be optimal in the Hoffman law relationship. It may have something to do with box resonance, I have never measured box resonance. All I know is that when working with new sub woofers, I always start with a decent sized box and start removing box volume and keeping the tuning the same until the box stops producing louder #'s. It's that magical volume that I have recorded for woofers that I have used in competition. And when I try something new out, I have a chart of optimal box volume/tuning that makes my new designs that much easier. Of course there is more to it than just that. I'm not letting all of the secrets out of the bag.

I said this and I don't know how you get IB and ported at the same time from the bold part, that is just retarded if this is an "enthusiast site." So a sealed sub is "sealed AND box?" Ported is "Ported AND box?" I never said "IB ported" or "at the same time." If I saw 'at same time' I would ask how that was done and how it worked. I would imagine not much would come out of the port, but in fact people have run IB and ported the whole trunk into the car and I have no idea how well it works as I never have. Because few people actually vent the subs to the outside for true IB due to obvious reasons. You are just looking to attack something out of context. Context of the post is subs can play low, even $15 dollar ones in more than one configuration, but many people don't run them that way. I'm sorry if that was not obvious, it sure looks plain as day to me. With the huge goofy posts you guys made over the weekend I just figured you had a few beers or something. In the English language the word AND means: Together with or along with; in addition to; as well as. Used to connect words, phrases, or clauses that have the same grammatical function in a construction. Your phrase that he quoted was I used to run pyramid 10's at 30hz IB and ported. I don't know about you. But when running an IB set-up. When have you ever seen anyone say I run a 30hz IB set up? That 30hz was most likely related to the word ported. Therefore because of the conjunction, you made the mistake of poor grammar. Therefore Mrray and ///M5 etc. Were completely right in assuming that you were saying IB and ported together.

I=W/E is a basic math formula I is current, W is Watt's and E is voltage I=7000/12 I=583.333333 Minimum Current Draw in a 100% efficient system for 7000 watts @ 1 ohm is 583 amperes. If my math is correct.

Most of the stuff was from people not reading my posts and replying. I don't recall the last time I got hunted down like that. To assume someone does not know what running ported or IB subs is? And then quote the post and cut out the part that explains the use? To say there is no audible difference between an old school amp at 75wrms@12v rated and another new amp at 70wrms CEA rated? To say people who run HU power all get high efficiency speakers to make it work? I don't really care, it just reflects the nature of users on this site to everyone that reads it. People can make up their own mind. Most people come on here for help not ridicule, but the place is what you make it. My posts are worth just what you paid for them, if they don't make sense then ask. Anyway, check this out where Pioneer actually shows you how you will be -5dB at 30Hz with their max size box for sealed or ported with a 12". http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pio/pe/i...8TSW3001D24.pdf You can't even quote yourself right when comparing the two amps you listed. AND WHAT YOU ACTUALLY POSTED