sandt38

I went in yesterday and worked even though it was my Satarday. Balls to the wall is a good description of how it went down. Yeah, I work on straight commission, so balls to the wall is a good thing. Slow, not so good.Yesterday I made over $400... today, about $5

Damn we are slow today. I was balls to the wall for the last 2 days, and today i can't even sell a battery.

No offense intended, but how did you wire it to a 4 ohm final? Did you double check?

I bet you have a 1 ohm final load on the Icon, IIRC the 1000.1 is 2 ohm stable. It is time to get that new amp, bud.

By doubling the impedance you cut the expected power in half.

Actually, based on the 12DB slope and acoustic coupling, I would guess the transition is pretty damned smooth. I knew you had the TypeRs. I am involved in a few midbass discussions, but I remembered your install. And I have an awful memory

So the package arrived at the shop and I could barely restrain my excitement. I had been reading a lot about the Hertz Mille set and found a brand new set for a real steal. The MLK165 set uses the ML165 mid driver, the ML28 tweeter, and the MLCX 20 crossover, which is amazingly HUGE! The mid is really a piece of art, very well constructed with an oddly shaped “V-cone” for better off axis dispersion. The tweeter comes with 2 “chambers” which seem to act as aperiodic membranes, altering FS from 1200Hz with the small to 920Hz with the large chamber. Hertz recommends the large chamber for best sound, and I agree that lowering FS is beneficial here as well, so I went with the large chamber. Unfortunately, almost none of the tweeter mounts will work with the large chamber, aside from flush mounting it, so don’t count on using this with a surface mount or with the angled tweeter pods that come with the unit… this design flaw is terribly disheartening I must say, but it didn’t affect my install, so… The Crossover is really obnoxiously HUGE, but pretty nicely featured. They use “easy jumpers”, which are pretty large, nicely handled couplers that are easier to use then most tiny jumpers we see in crossovers. They also allow for bi-amping the system, or running a single amp if you so choose. Click here to view the MLK165 PDF file. HU source is a Pioneer Premier FH-P800BT. Front stage amplifier is a Butler Tube Driver Blue 475 which is bridged for 2X200@4ohms, properly set up with an O-scope for no clipping. The front stage is crossed at 80Hz. The substage consists of a Cadence ZRS6000D which is ~650@2ohms, and 2 Adire Koda 10” subs in a midsized (1.2 per sub) sealed arrangement, also crossed at 80Hz and run in reverse polarity. The mids are in the stock location in the lower front of the doors, decoupled from the sheet metal, spaced out with MDF, in a well damped door in an IB alignment. The tweets are well angled in the kicks, with a desired soundstage in the center of the windshield. Some modification was made on the kicks to change the angle, as the silks are more directional then the aluminum tweets they replaced. At the start of the testing I had the EQ dead flat; as this worked best for me with the CDT PSS-0626i set I removed from the system. In playing with this set I realized that I could not leave it flat as the bottom ½ octave or so seemed weak, so I boosted the mids at 125Hz, and reset the amplifier to compensate. I found that the substage being crossed at 80 and the mids crossed at the same point gave me a slightly artificial boost at 80, and the system remained relatively flat thanks to the mid’s rolloff, albeit slightly exaggerated at 80Hz, which livened up kick drums nicely. The crossovers of this set allow for tweeter attenuation, but I opted to leave the crossover set at 0dB. I also elected to use the HFC or “high frequency contour” option in the crossovers which compensates for speaker distance issues relative to the driver in the car, and it seemed to open the soundstage up on the driver’s side, where a silk dome might seem closed off in most other cases. Overall the set has a nice sound to it. The mid seems rather forward in the midrange, and is weak on the bottom end, which surprised me. I like my mid to be fairly fat down low and I really like a low crossover point, which I was not able to achieve with this set. In looking at the specs it appeared like it might be a bit soft on the bottom compared to the ES-06, yet I expected it to be punchier, more aggressive. Needless to say I was surprised and disappointed at the bottom end, I expected it to be a little fuller, but I was pleased that it was punchier, although not as much as I expected, and it still remains easy on the ears. It is not overly aggressive or fatiguing, and yet well defined. A really happy medium, which I cannot say is a function of the driver, or the tubes that drive it. Even though it is a bit heavy in the midrange, the vocals seem very natural, and instrumentation is very clean and nicely detailed. Female vocals are very real, and open. The crossover point is seamless, as expected from such a high end set. Though the crossover is so huge as to render it nearly impossible to hide, it is extremely well featured, and well designed, crossing at 2.5kHz. The tweeters are a soft dome 1 1/8 inch compact design, with apeariodic chambers for the rear of the unit. According to Hertz, these are an open backed design that allows is to use various aperiodic modules to attach to the rear and alter the resonant frequency, and thus the behavior of the tweeter. While I did not play with the various modules, sticking with the largest module with the lowest overall system FS of 920Hz, I can guess it is a cool feature. The tweeters are delicate, yet pretty well detailed. Far and away one of the finer compacts I have heard. Unlike many soft domes this tweeter is energetic, and although the dispersion is more narrow then my old DRT26A aluminum domes, it is still pretty broad for a soft dome. They are very open and airy, lively and not fatiguing in any way. The soundstage and image are pretty strong. While I have managed a better stage width in the car it is arguably more a function of the dome material then the driver’s incompetence. As I stated before, metal domes do offer better dispersion which I attribute to a broader soundstage. These definitely offer an extremely broad stage for soft domes. Image depth is impressive, with very realistic placement of musicians in test CDs and live acoustic performances… I love live acoustic sets as they tend to offer fixed placement of the musicians and a very real soundstage. Musically these are pretty decent for most tastes. I did find some older midrange heavy 80’s metal to be a bit fatiguing though, due to the forward midrange I mentioned earlier. Female vocals are beautiful with this set, Sarah McLachlan and Norah Jones sound amazing. Norah’s breathless voice rings through very real and clear just floating in the center of the soundstage. Sarah’s amazing voice seems to fill the stage, and the differences between her grand piano, and Norah’s smaller piano are evidenced by this set. The grand just feels far more tonal and heavy then the smaller piano… you can almost feel the resonance of the large panels of the grand in the car. I love to use Dave Matthews for complex riffs and the huge array of instrumentation he likes to use. His nasal voice rings through as irritating as ever, and maybe a tad more nasal then I am used to. The background musicians really take off, and the lively midrange propels them to the forefront. Strings really ring true, with a nice and realistic decay, where some high strings that may get annoying with lively midranges seem to stay laid back and controlled, not what I might expect in listening to old school metal. I liked the way that Alice in Chains’ Unplugged album uses a kickdrum that is blocked by a plastic panel so as not to overpower the band, really seems like something is in the way of the kick. The placement of the musicians, which I know very well as I like to watch their Unplugged DVD, is extremely accurate, not overly separated like some sets that make it feel almost artificial, yet realistic enough in their placement that you know where they are sitting. You can tell Scottie Olsen is sitting right behind Mike Inez. I did a lot of other listening, but wanted to keep this segment brief… or at least as brief as my rambling can get, anyways . To summarize, I like the set well enough, but it does suffer some shortcomings that I would not expect from a set costing a cool grand. I really expect a set this high end to have better bottom end. With 6MM of XMAX and a fairly low FS, this set should be solid to cross at 65hz, but it just starts to struggle at 80Hz. But with that weakness comes a great midrange, with some interesting qualities, a solid crossover that is well featured, well thought out, simple to adjust and set up with great jumpers, and a very, very nice tweeter. While the only audible complaint I have is the lack of deep down guttural midbass, the set does suffer some physical shortcomings as well. While it includes several tweeter mount options, you can’t use the best aperiodic module on any of them… rending the vast array of options completely useless if SQ is your focus. Also, the crossover… Guys, I can’t tell you enough how obnoxiously large this thing is. If I had a thousand bucks to drop on a set, I think I would pass this set up for a few others. For what I paid for it, it is pretty decent, although in a similar price range I have owned better… But the midrange is intoxicating and the tweeter is very, very nice. If you have an opportunity to listen to the set, I suggest it. With all my complaining, it really does have some very strong audible qualities that have to be heard to be believed… oh yeah, and the mid is just absolutely a sexy unit, a real piece of art. Mid in door: Comp set: Tweets and aperiodic membrane: Crossover topless: Mid from the front: Mid from behind: Tweeter:

Dave Matthews: Crash, and Under the Table and Dreaming Both whole albums. While his voice is irritating, the musicianship is awesome. Sarah McLachlan: Closer most of the album. Norah Jones: Come Away With Me. Steely Dan: A Decade of Steely Dan Pink Floyd: Dark Side of the Moon, Wish You Were Here, The Wall (While bass heavy it sounds amazing) Tantric: Tantric (Whole Album) Road to Perdition Soundtrack: Rock Island, Road to Chicago, The Farm, Cathedral, Road to Perdition, Perdition (more because I like the duet, but it is just pianos) I have several others, but I'll need to get to my stick (Lossless on thumbdrives FTMFW!)

Interesting to see so many old school amps listed. I had a hard time boiling it down to 1, but I got to my top 2. I can't say enough about my Butler TDB. I love tubes, and it allowed me to put good power into the car with a very natural tube sound. I know it is a hybrid, but it sounds so sweet. The other one is the exact opposite of an SQ comp amp, it was my Cadence Z7000HC. 1500+ watts thumping out of a monstrous bright ass orange class AB amp. I ran 2 Brahma 12MKIIs to it at 1/2 ohm load for about a month and it kept pounding. For the majority of it's life, though, it just powered a single B12... Nothing is sexier then 1500 AB watts through one of the most linear, perfectly designed car audio subwoofers ever.

I was looking at you sig, and now I have to ask, are you using the extended range drivers for midrange and top end? I thought I saw a build in your car that was using TypeR comps before... maybe it was someone else, and if so I apologize I am still trying to get to know people here. But I remember the trunk build and the attention to detail, and I could have sworn you had a comp set in there. I looked through your gallery and there were so many pics, I got lost in them I'll need to revisit your page and see the car again. Take a look at this chart. If you look on the bottom of the chart you will see descriptions of the sound qualities of the various frequency ranges listed there. By using these descriptors, perhaps you can find the frequency ranges you are looking to accentuate and perhaps play with your EQ a bit and see if that is the range and the result you are looking for.

There are a couple things I would like to point out here... First, any modeling program is going to force a midbass driver into a ported application, based on the higher Fs which boosts EBP. Please bear in mind that EBP (efficiency bandwidth product) is simply Fs/Qes. The majority of the modeling programs are looking to achieve a very flat FR and the lowest F3 possible. So take that with a grain of salt. Why? Because you don't really need to worry about the low F3. First, this is a midbass driver, so an F3 of 30Hz is going to be unnecessary. Second, cabin gains in the car will help fatten up anything around 100Hz or less (I know I will get an argument from someone saying 80Hz, and vehicle specific, or whatever... I am just making a quick generalization here), so you don't necessarily want to see a flat anechoic response curve that low, or you will have to skinny up the bottom end via EQ if you are looking for a flat response. Second, I suggest you not focus on a single crossover slope. Different vehicles with different driver combination will respond differently to various slopes. While we like to use steep crossover slopes on tweeters, and midranges, we don't necessarily want to use them on midbass drivers. Why? Well, the lower we extend in the frequency range the more air the driver has to move in order to maintain linear output. Tweeters have very small diaphragms, and too much extension can cause distortions, and can be mechanically dangerous to the driver (if you would like to see a ring radiator I have one torn apart, and I may even have a silk dome torn down, just let me know and I will get a few shots for you.). So rather then demand them to go beyond their physical limitations we elect to cross them sharply. The same can be said with midrange drivers, and I don't mean extended range midrange/midbass drivers, I mean 3 or 4 inch midrange. We don't want to start seeing them overextend themselves and fall apart (audibly I mean), but where we want to cross a tweeter at say a 24 octave slope, we would be more comfortable crossing the midrange at 18 or even 12db slopes. Keep in mind, the frequency range per octave is very broad when we get into higher frequencies, where they get much smaller at lower frequency ranges... for example a 1 octave slope from a 60Hz crossover point is only 30Hz, where a 1 octave slope from a 5000Hz crossover point is 2500Hz, which is 1 reason why we are more comfortable using a more gradual slope when we cross lower and lower. With a midbass driver, it should be pretty capable of getting down low without much breakup, and our slopes are significantly more steep, just based on how narrow an octave becomes at such low frequencies. So don't go worrying so much about your bottom end slope with regards to the crossover point in the car. It is really something you should just play with until you find what works best. I think the reason you pushed the Auras is because they are pretty sterile. They just don't seem to deliver quite as loud as a distorted driver. I like to remind people that the very limits of our hearing are the places where music becomes emotion, not sound. This is why a linear, undistorted subwoofer (as well as midwoofers) sounds so sterile, because it is more of a feeling then an audible perception. So you shouldn't try to hear the music, in as much as you should try to gather the emotion of it... That is what sound quality is all about.

I remember the old Vibes, when they were decent. I know what you mean about losing the fun and falling into the perfection. I remember way back when we tossed home audio speakers in our backseats and thought we were bad as hell. They were fun times. It is amazing to me I never burned down a car way back when. HA! A buddy of mine still uses those. Damn fine amps

I merged the 2 threads, since they were the same. I felt it belonged in the IA forum, but if the OP prefers it in the subwoofer forum, where the other one was, just PM me and I'll put it there.

Not so much the product as it is the busisness practices and customer service or lack of. Indeed... I know in the past they put out a bunch of crap with high failure rate. But their lack of customer service and shitty business practices... Well, let's just say i don't like to bash companies, but I'll lambaste that SOB and his company in a heartbeat. He screwed 3 personal friends of mine as well as countless internet pals. If you want a great quality all one brand in your trunk, I suggest someone like Jacob from Sundown. Much better product, much better CS, and excellent business practices. He worked hard for what he has, he didn't use an inheritance to swindle people. No, I have no affiliation with Jacob at all, I just know him from the forums for the last 7 or 8 years I would guesstimate.

Good deal. Sweet components. I have some Hertz as well, and I can honestly say they are very hard to beat. The build quality is superb, tonal quality is excellent, and they stage very well... The install looks great, and for a set of 3 way Hertz components and the installation, I think you did pretty well for $400...

ID CD2Neo horns, midbass would either be CSS Trio8 or JBL 2218H (have them both). It's still up in the air, still trying to decide. I love the dynamics of horns, but they can be a bear to tune properly. If I kept the Bravox in the car, I would run them active since I have that option and it allows for more control and fine tuning. Much simpler setup than the horns with better results much quicker and likely much less required tuning, and after using them I know I'll be more than satisfied with the results if I go this route as well. Thanks, dude! i appreciate the reply and the great review.

Maybe you should reconsider the mids then. What alignment are these IB3s going into? If they are going to be in an IB installation, would you care to disclose specifics, like how you will isolate them, and how large will the "enclosure" actually be. It may be impossible to get these into a true IB installation in a vehicle, so the top end may actually be more accessable in the alignment then you think.

I don't know weather to laugh or cry... To the OP, Clarion makes some very nice gear, contrary to popular opinion. I like the sound of their HUs better then Alpine, personally. I find Alpine to be fairly bright. Although I know that it was not part of the original equation, and I usually try not to veer from the OP's actual question, the recommendation of the 800PRS is seconded here... but I have a Pioneer bias, so take that at face value. My sources at home and in my vehicles are all Pioneer (Premier in the rides and Elites at home), and I have yet to be disappointed.

Bummer dude...

So you are plnning on removing the backseat altogether, or you want to fit them under the seat? A buddy of mine had a Tundra, and the most he could get in there were a pair of IDQ10s Also, what are the goals? Are you dead set on the amp? I generally recommend selecting the subs first, then buying the amp to power them.

Interesting. I have seen the ads on the side of the forums and just kind of shrugged them off as some fly-by-night Chinese company. But when I saw you reviewing them, I figured I would give it a read. Most impressive, indeed. I saw you might be keeping these instead of reselling them, if i might ask, what are you planning on replacing with this set? And this is definitely not too wordy. I like a very detailed and informative review. My reviews are typically twice that length

As a landlord myself I can tell you it is not smart to buy a $200,000 house to rent out. People renting out big houses are not usually there for long. I have a big house like that I rent out and 3 smaller houses in not so nice neighborhoods. The big house was my last house, and rather then selling it we decided to rent it out. We found that it sits vacant and rolls over more then the others. People renting these houses are usually those who have had an issue in their main home, such as a fire or whatnot, that requires them to be out of their house for a few months, or people building houses in that area and wanting their kids to warm to the schools before hand, etc. They are just very temporary renters. The smaller houses rent quickly, as they are cheap, and they are in areas where the average renter can't afford to move real quick, you know first and last months and paying for a moving truck is a struggle. Yeah, maybe it seems cold renting to people who simply can't afford to leave, but it is business. Ha, $200k doesn't even buy a starter house here. You can't rent anything unless you spend that much. That is the beauty about central NC, our housing costs are so low here. I bought an 1870Sq Ft home with 2 car attached garage and a 12X16X12 building out back on 2 acres 8 years ago for $135K. I bought our current house, which is smaller (2 of our sons moved out, 2 other moved out previously, but this left us with 1 in the house, yes 5 boys) at 1500Sq feet, with a 20'X48' deck, and an in-ground pool (9 ft deep end, diving board), 14 acres, 3 stocked ponds for... get this now... $125,000. We live in a killer area, a nice grove of trees surround us, you can't see the house from the road at all. I can walk out on my front porch and shoot my bows, or my guns... go fishin' anytime... I love shooting my bow, I shoot daily. I love it here. Seriously. Much better then SoCal. We had a house in Anaheim that was 900Sq Ft on a small concrete lot (right near Disneyland) we finally sold it 4 years ago for $490,000. We speculated too long. It went from $650K to $490 in just shy of 2 years... The damn market collapsed FAST out there.

That's pretty much what I am thinking too.

i do as well, but sundown hasn't let me down yet and has all ways exceed my expectations. maybe i just want to see sundown succeed in all area's. i am odd. Not odd at all, dude. Jacob is a good dude, and I also want to see him succeed in all areas as well.

Do you notice any belt noise when it really hits? If not a squeal, maybe a rattle or a thump. Maybe have someone ride next to you and listen for it. Also, do you notice lights dimming? Are the gauges or lights on the dash acting funny? Is it a very abrupt feeling, like a jerk, like someone grabbing and stopping the motor instantaneously, or is it more laid back, like the way the engine will respond to jumping on the accelerator... not exactly immediate, but noticeable. There are a few things going through my head. The Yaris isn't exactly a beast, and it takes HP to turn that alt. Being so heavily wound it will definitely require more effort then a stock alt. Most people don't know that you can have a locked up alternator stop an engine from moving at all when there is a serpentine belt in the system. I have seen more then a few cars that were misdiagnosed with blown motors only to pull the belt off and have it run fine.. So I ask about the chirp, like the belt is slipping and dragging the motor down, or a thump or rattle, as if the belt were locking so tight it may be causing the automatic tensioner to jump, as it is just a spring loaded pulley. Finally I ask about the dash lights and gauges as you may be snagging too much power for the system, and the voltage is dropping too low for the ECU (car's computer). The ECU expects to be able to deliver ~12 volts to power actuators, like your injectors, and it also expects a minimum voltage as an input so it can step down the voltage to provide a 5 volt reference, which is the common computer output to sensors, which the sensors in turn manipulate either by frequency or voltage fluctuations so that the computer can determine how the engine is functioning. If the ECU is not seeing the initial expected voltages, it can really throw everything else out of whack. Hopefully we can get somewhere with a little more info, or maybe something I said may ring a bell for you. Either way, I look forward to hearing back from you with some more details, or better yet a fix.