mrd

Simple my ass. I'm not spending that much damn money. What exactly do you mean by L/R eq bands? Left and right? So you are running one of those equalizers that you can adjust 16 bands individually? Did you use one of those meters to tune it? The tubes are the most expensive part of this setup. The 12ax7 are only $12 each new... The problem comes with powering them off a battery. I have a vibrator to do it, but I just need two batteries then to obtain the required 24V for operation. Unless I can find a 12V vibrator for cheaper than a second battery... Why on god's green earth do you want tubes for a car?? Don't get me wrong I do enjoy them on the right full range horn configuration in a house, but a car?? Because tubes are awesome. And it would be fun. I like building stuff. Haha. Why would you want a $1500 system in your car? Same principle.

Alright. I will find a different tube to use. $1500 is a hell of a lot of money to put into something that some arseho could just drive away... I still disagree. IMO the stock hu is a poor choice (of course depending on which stock hu). What's the budget? A hu significantly better than stock will cost at least $250. Budget would be the deciding factor on whether or not yours will sound better than mine.

Simple my ass. I'm not spending that much damn money. What exactly do you mean by L/R eq bands? Left and right? So you are running one of those equalizers that you can adjust 16 bands individually? Did you use one of those meters to tune it? The tubes are the most expensive part of this setup. The 12ax7 are only $12 each new... The problem comes with powering them off a battery. I have a vibrator to do it, but I just need two batteries then to obtain the required 24V for operation. Unless I can find a 12V vibrator for cheaper than a second battery...

Couldn't tell you. I need to read more. What I do know is that I personally like rear fill (where there are only midbass speakers at lower output than the fronts). It just doesn't sound good to me with only a front stage. If you are trying to make music sound good, you don't want to electronically remove all the frequencies that cause "howl". It is easier and better sounding to just leave out the rears. How awesome does the pa system sound when music is playing through it anyway? It doesn't. Do you know anything about vacuum tubes? I am going to build a tube amp. I wouldn't use a 1/3 octave bin to remove feedback, but a narrow band. Your ears won't know the difference. The only reason you like rears is you haven't heard a properly setup front stage. Nearly everytime someone is in the rear of my truck they ask what speakers I have back there. When I say none, they crap. Wasn't hard to do either as my truck has a very budget friendly install. How did you setup your front stage? I am actually wanting to put a tube amp in my car. And if it doesn't work like I planned I will just use it for home audio...

Couldn't tell you. FCM knows. Ask him... I need to read more. What I do know is that I personally like rear fill (where there are only midbass speakers at lower output than the fronts). It just doesn't sound good to me with only a front stage. If you are trying to make music sound good, you don't want to electronically remove all the frequencies that cause "howl". It is easier and better sounding to just leave out the rears. How awesome does the pa system sound when music is playing through it anyway? It doesn't. Do you know anything about vacuum tubes? I am going to build a tube amp.

Speakers in the rear cause feedback through the mics. You don't have this problem in a car. Thanks for playing. EDIT: 3-d smilies are weird looking.

What 5.1 recordings? The P9 has an offboard processor. Not part of the h/u There is a dvd audio cd that came with the car that has kiss from rose and I don't remember what else is on it, but it has both the 5.1 recordings on it and regular cd recordings so you can listen to the difference back to back. I'm about to order the complex from blue man group though... it should be awesome. Usually the processing is done inside the hu which is why crappy hus produce crappy sound. So you are proposing rear fill and 5.1 for ONE cd? And its a demo. Nice logic. No I am not. I am proposing rear fill for cd and 5.1 for dvd audio or sacd. You still haven't answered my question... which furthers my belief that you truly don't know... If you would actually READ about dvd audio and sacd maybe you would understand that it is not a gimic. Because obviously you still think I'm an idiot.

What 5.1 recordings? The P9 has an offboard processor. Not part of the h/u There is a dvd audio cd that came with the car that has kiss from rose and I don't remember what else is on it, but it has both the 5.1 recordings on it and regular cd recordings so you can listen to the difference back to back. I'm about to order the complex from blue man group though... it should be awesome. Usually the processing is done inside the hu which is why crappy hus produce crappy sound.

But apparently not because m5 is telling everyone else otherwise... BTW m5, I just copied and pasted that link from my bookmarks page. Let's see, I can either copy and paste it or type out a synopsis... Let me think... You can go to hell. :ebeer: Certain cars come with 5.1 systems in them from the factory... but everyone says rear speakers make the whole system sound like shit... oh noes! What you people really don't understand is a case by case basis. You learn one thing and apply it to everything, which just isn't how it works... Maybe if you didn't think you were God of the car audio industry and actually think once in a while you might start to finally get it through your head what I am trying to tell you. But I guess I can't be that smart to challenge m5! Do you even know the reason that there are no rear speakers in concert halls? The reason that all the sound comes from the front? No need to get pissy and take this personal, not my fault you are a complete noob. As for myself, I am not a god, still learning. Lots to go. And the 5.1 systems in those cars was a MARKETING GIMIC. Answer the question, do you have ANY 5.1 recordings you listen to in your car? If not, why would you want a 5.1? How are you asking me about concert halls with fronts only when you promote rears? You also misjudge John's comment. He didn't say the headunit made the difference, but the processing in it. Perhaps you know of a "budget" headunit that has the processing power of the P9? Completely different beast. In this case that tuning potential is part of the install which I said the OP in the thread we are discussing needs to focus on and not waste his money on a headunit. Actually yes, I do have 5.1 recordings that I listen to... They are dvd audio. And it is not a gimic. It is legitimately awesome. How can the processing in a hu make a difference but not the hu itself? Different hu's have different levels of processing in them... I'm guessing the reason you never answered my question is because you don't know...

But apparently not because m5 is telling everyone else otherwise... BTW m5, I just copied and pasted that link from my bookmarks page. Let's see, I can either copy and paste it or type out a synopsis... Let me think... You can go to hell. :ebeer: Certain cars come with 5.1 systems in them from the factory... but everyone says rear speakers make the whole system sound like shit... oh noes! What you people really don't understand is a case by case basis. You learn one thing and apply it to everything, which just isn't how it works... Maybe if you didn't think you were God of the car audio industry and actually think once in a while you might start to finally get it through your head what I am trying to tell you. But I guess I can't be that smart to challenge m5! Do you even know the reason that there are no rear speakers in concert halls? The reason that all the sound comes from the front?

I may not know alot about car audio, but you 2 guys are idiots....there's no other nice way to put it. In another topic you suggested coaxials... If you have rear speakers set up in the way fcm suggested it sounds much much much better than running only the fronts. I prefer "rear fill", you may not. Speakers you think sound good, I may think sound like shit and vice versa. Theoretically for optimum sq, the tweeter should be placed as close as possible to the midbass, in a coax, they are directly in line so you have zero delay issues... probably not noticeable to 99.99percent of people anyway... Wrong again. You still have delay issues as the driving point of the drivers is not aligned (ie the motors). Having them on the same axis does something else, but since you know everything I don't have to tell you what it is. I feel sorry for you, you claim to like rear fill which obviously means you have never heard an SQ setup. Sure I realize that for some effects you can achieve this with rears, but instead of making it easy for you I'll just assume like everything else you know nothing about them. I do have a question though, what are the 0.01% of people going to notice? ie what will be different? You don't have to answer as I know you don't know the answer, but that's okay. I understand the internet. Here you go. http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/diy-mobile-audio-sq-forum/62850-tweeter-alignment-critical.html Rear speakers can = 5.1 or 7.1 if you hu is capable. But of course, I don't have to tell you any of this shit because you already know it. Because you know everything. It's ok. I understand. It's the internet.

I may not know alot about car audio, but you 2 guys are idiots....there's no other nice way to put it. In another topic you suggested coaxials... If you have rear speakers set up in the way fcm suggested it sounds much much much better than running only the fronts. I prefer "rear fill", you may not. Speakers you think sound good, I may think sound like shit and vice versa. Theoretically for optimum sq, the tweeter should be placed as close as possible to the midbass, in a coax, they are directly in line so you have zero delay issues... probably not noticeable to 99.99percent of people anyway...

We got off topic when eggy said sq not possible. We were only discussing the aspect of the amp. If you'll read fcm's post he stated that you can achieve sq without an amp, but with properly installed speakers, a good hu and sd. That is when eggy said basically that you would never get sq without an amp. You said huge difference "over 95dB." If you look at the dB chart, 95dB is equivalent to a hand circular saw at three feet. According to the same table 80dB is VERY LOUD road traffic. 95dB is much louder than I like to listen to my music. I'm not arguing that it doesn't make a difference at 95dB, it does, but I don't listen to my music that loud anyway. In my car, I upgraded my hu first. This made a ridiculous difference over the stock unit. I have a real hard time believing that if I amplified the stock signal I would have better sound than I do now. I then amplified my system. This only made a difference at higher volumes, much higher volumes, but now I don't have to turn my hu up as loud for the same "listening" volume and the sq is still the same when the settings are the same however, I now have the ability to change the frequencies that only the rear channel puts out easier. dude you said you could have a sq system with coaxials all around. how many sq systems are ampless? how many use rear fill? how many are passive? come on.. Why can't you? The point is it CAN be done and it is done. You even suggested coaxials to the op to run for better sq... all those 2-ways and 3-ways you were suggesting are coaxials...

We got off topic when eggy said sq not possible. We were only discussing the aspect of the amp. If you'll read fcm's post he stated that you can achieve sq without an amp, but with properly installed speakers, a good hu and sd. That is when eggy said basically that you would never get sq without an amp. You said huge difference "over 95dB." If you look at the dB chart, 95dB is equivalent to a hand circular saw at three feet. According to the same table 80dB is VERY LOUD road traffic. 95dB is much louder than I like to listen to my music. I'm not arguing that it doesn't make a difference at 95dB, it does, but I don't listen to my music that loud anyway. In my car, I upgraded my hu first. This made a ridiculous difference over the stock unit. I have a real hard time believing that if I amplified the stock signal I would have better sound than I do now. I then amplified my system. This only made a difference at higher volumes, much higher volumes, but now I don't have to turn my hu up as loud for the same "listening" volume and the sq is still the same when the settings are the same however, I now have the ability to change the frequencies that only the rear channel puts out easier.

So for the poster on the other site with a Crower stage 3 wanting a little more out of his headunit you truly think this is the case? Let's look at this objectively. That car is going to have a noise floor in the 85dB range. In order to have ANY acoustic separation you need to be 10dB > than the background noise. This puts us at 95dB which will be a level that is not "more" per his request, but either way we'll use it. A normal set of speakers is around 88dB efficient. To reach 95dB we will need to be putting >4w to the speakers to get them there. So at this "low" volume you really think that a h/u will sound just like an amplifier? Obviously not. Go to Best Buy and listen to a $200 boombox at 4w and then listen to a $200 amp at 4w and tell me there is no difference. No where did I even come close to saying that there would be NO improvement with a different source, just that it fundamentally isn't the reason for sounding bad. The amplifiers in h/u's are a complete joke, and this isn't at all about output but about quality. Dynamic capability, headroom, components that don't color the sound, and a decent power supply are all required for "SQ" but with your experience this should really be obvious to you already...that is unless you've never done a comparison and are blindly recommending what you have and not what you have experienced. Eggy may not understand, but at least he is trying to by actually reading things from people that do. I can't say the same about you. I would like to know in what events did mrd act as a "judge"? hard to believe he was ever involved in anything SQ I was never a judge. That was the other guy. The point is sq CAN be achieved without using an external amp. That is the only point we were trying to make, not specifically in regards to the op on ht, but merely because eggy said it was impossible to achieve sq WITHOUT an external amp. Either you don't know what the exact argument is, or you've never tried it. One of the two...

Your comments are funny. You keep talking about "noise" and that you will just amplify it. Where do you think this noise comes from? Only three real places: either the pre-amp stage, the d/a's or the amplifier itself. Today's d/a's are pretty much all fine and it is really easy to make a cheap pre-amp stage that sounds decent as you don't need a ton of gain. Use a laptop as an analogy. Your music can sound pretty good playing with the built in soundcard which utilizes a chip that costs the manufacturer a nickel maybe. A cheap headunit regularly is of better quality of this even including OEM stock units. So where is this nasty noise coming from then? Definitely the part of the circuit that is the MOST expensive to build which is the amplifier. For instance the power supply on a cheap off board amplifier will still cost more than the whole amplifier in a headunit. Headunit amplifier is an oxymoron. If you truly believe this is real power, I am thoroughly amused. Component parts are chosen regularly to meet a price point and pretend to be a spec. 19w is a joke and not in the amount of power but the joke is that they got you to believe it. No where anywhere did I say "louder=better", but I will guarantee for the OP in the thread on Hondatech that he will listen to his stereo turned up (sole reason he is getting it as he wants more) which means that poor h/u "amplifier" will be creating mad noise instead of doing what it is supposed to and that is amplify the signal off the pre-amp. I suppose you will tell us next how headroom won't improve the sound and it is unnecessary as well as it would fit right into your argument. Actually no. My whole point is that at lower volumes an amplifier WILL NOT make one damn bit of difference. Yes, at higher volumes, an amp will allow you to have better sq. My hu with paper components will go louder than I want to listen to them before it starts "producing mad noise." Sources vary, so while mine is capable of doing this (clarion), another hu (sony xplode or OEM unit) with the same exact speakers cannot. Based on your logic, you would get the same sq no matter what source you were using as long as you were externally amplifying the system. This is not true. As far as your comment eggy, you are blindly following people on here without real understanding of what is going on.

" The sound has more to do with the signal coming off of the CD or whatever than the amplifier." This is what I have been trying to tell everyone. It seems like you know what I am saying.

Not one time did I come across anyone with a low budget that wanted excellent SQ.. just loudness. I'll I've read here is mostly different mindsets from loud to strictly SQ. Loudness is where the amp comes in to play...

How is the amp in a good hu any different in the noise adding department than a "budget" amplifier, other than the fact you can get more spl out of an externally amplified setup? Based on your technology improves statement, the amplifiers in the newer hu's would also create less noise and put out more power... Tell me why a hu's internal amp is "crappy" other than the mere fact that it puts out only 19wrms... You people still seem to believe that louder = better sound, which is not the case. As I have said before, some of the best speakers I have ever heard are powered by 50wrms. Some of the shittiest speakers I have ever hear are powered by 200wrms... Lolz. . Grow a pair and admit you're wrong! With more power coming from an ampifier, there is a higher level of CLEAN power. While the headunit MIGHT put out 50w, it's clipped to shit. A clean 50w will sound better whether its focal, or pyle! I never said a hu will put out 50wrms. You even said it yourself "with an amplifier there is a HIGHER LEVEL of clean power" meaning that only spl is affected based on what you just now said. This means that the system will be able to venture into higher volumes without clipping. SQ is only affected at higher volumes.

How is the amp in a good hu any different in the noise adding department than a "budget" amplifier, other than the fact you can get more spl out of an externally amplified setup? Based on your technology improves statement, the amplifiers in the newer hu's would also create less noise and put out more power... Tell me why a hu's internal amp is "crappy" other than the mere fact that it puts out only 19wrms... You people still seem to believe that louder = better sound, which is not the case. As I have said before, some of the best speakers I have ever heard are powered by 50wrms. Some of the shittiest speakers I have ever hear are powered by 200wrms...

In the case that started the argument, the op has xplode coax. These will run fine off hu power alone, and will sound no better except at extreme volumes where the internal amp can't keep up (if the hu will even get to that volume). Upgrading the stock harness to a thicker power and ground will help the hu supply power better.

I'll put a good hu with avg components to the test with your crappy hu and amp driven avg components any day. Just because you have more power does not equate to you having better sound. Some of the best speakers I have ever heard are 50wrms. This is the damned point I was trying to make. You all think that if your shitty speakers with a shitty source will be powered with 200wrms they will magically sound awesome! They won't. The kid in the other thread is on a limited budget. Very limited. Not everyone is made of money where they can afford a source, amp, and speakers.

His original argument was that his setup will sound better if he just amps it. And we were both arguing (basically) that the op's money is better spent on a better hu, which would give him much greater sq than merely amping his speakers would alone. You don't necessarily NEED an amp for good sq (at lower volumes, depending on the speakers and source, not everyone needs their ears to bleed... ) eggy never said anything about using an a/b amp to power components, he initially stated that you just need an amp. That is what started the argument. FCM went on to say that a "high-power" hu and properly installed speakers will give you good sq, and this is when eggy said that you need an amp for good sq. What kind of amp did you think he was talking about when he said using an amp would be better? a CLASS D for coaxials! of course he was talking about A/B class No I did not. Did you read the thread yet? Lulz. If the op of that thread just amped the speakers, his sq would be no better except at higher volumes. If he put in a better hu, rather than an amp, he would get better sq.

Hello. Eggy started off by saying that you can't get good sound out of speakers without an amplifier. Myself and the other member were trying to say that you don't necessarily need an amp to get quality sound out of a pair of speakers. A given hu's onboard amp is sufficient (at lower volumes obviously) depending on the speakers in question. The member that originally posted the init question has sony xplode coax from walmart as well as a noname hu from the same place. If he replaces the hu with a better quality unit, he will obtain much better sound, rather than just amping the signal that is coming out of his current hu and feeding that into the speakers. yes a HU will have an effect on SQ. so will the speakers. i bet you if he used that same HU with some better quality speakers(infinity,focal,soundstream pro series) he would get better SQ just from the speakers alone. just answer the questions: sony explod or Focal. which one would you choose? I would argue that a better signal fed to the speakers makes more difference than the speakers themselves. It's like listening to a radio vs. a cd... So what you are saying is that the speakers make no difference in SQ. so in the world of car audio, home audio, pro audio, and studio recording audio the speaker plays no part in sound quality. I SERIOUSLY DOUBT THAT!. if thats the case I wasted my money on My JBL PRO AUDIO DJ speakers and my CROWN AMPS and could have gone with some flea market brand speakers. there is a reason why companies make "ECONOMY" products and then they make the "HIGH END" products, because people spend there money wisely. I think Everyone on this forum would agree when I say that they would not trade in their SUNDOWN products for some PYLE PRO products for any reason at all. That is not what I'm saying at all. You should really read the thread: http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2659926 I am saying that the source makes the most difference, esp in a CAR.

His original argument was that his setup will sound better if he just amps it. And we were both arguing (basically) that the op's money is better spent on a better hu, which would give him much greater sq than merely amping his speakers would alone. You don't necessarily NEED an amp for good sq (at lower volumes, depending on the speakers and source, not everyone needs their ears to bleed... ) eggy never said anything about using an a/b amp to power components, he initially stated that you just need an amp. That is what started the argument. FCM went on to say that a "high-power" hu and properly installed speakers will give you good sq, and this is when eggy said that you need an amp for good sq.